# From "Shock and Awe" to Aw, Shit! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764 "2005-05-20T16:51:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/21 "2005-05-20T21:42:59Z")
> [@wring](#): > > wrt to the OP itself. I recall getting into debates way back then and having the neocons assure me that the WoMD **were** there, we had no choice and anyhow, it’d all be over in a few days withonly a few casualties on our end, parades, cheering, toppling of statues, a few more weeks of mopping up the oil spills then on to glory. Not only that the WMD were _there_, but that they knew where they were. And/or that said WMDs included a nuclear program. And you forgot the flowers strewn in the path of our conquering troops. And that Iraq’s oil industry would pick up the tab for reconstruction. If I had helped spread the above nonsense, I would be doing more than searching my soul, I’d fucking hide. Of course, I actually have a sense of right and wrong and/or shame. Gotta look into getting inoculated for that. Then maybe I can be a tool as well. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/22 "2005-05-20T21:49:47Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > If I had helped spread the above nonsense, I would be doing more than searching my soul, I’d fucking hide. Of course, I actually have a sense of right and wrong and/or shame. Gotta look into getting inoculated for that. Then maybe I can be a tool as well. The people making up stories about WMD wouldn’t have told them in the first place if they had any shame. They are cynical, shameless manipulators who want nothing so much as to hold on to power, and the American public is sadly so easily fleeced by a couple references to Jesus that they’ll go along with it. (What’s with that, anyway? Do people think that saying “God” means you can’t possibly be lying? Do they expect God to incinerate folks who invoke him falsely with lightning?) ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/23 "2005-05-20T21:54:43Z")
> [@Danalan](#): > > Most of the ‘unrest’ in Iraq is because our troops are there. Remove them, and things will get better for the citizens. I’m not so sure of that. I find myself leaning increasingly towards **elucidator** ’s view: > [@elucidator](#): > > Well, that’s the whole nub, isn’t it? I have considerable sympathy for that point of view, our moral responsibility and all that. Six months ago I said “We’re stuck with it, we fucked up, we gotta pay.” I am becoming increasingly uncertain about that. > > Its starting to look like our very presence is more of a hindrance than a help, but if we wait for certainty, for resolved clarity, we will wait forever. I am entertaining serious doubts if there is _anything_ we can do that will forstall a full-scale civil war for more than a week or so after we’re gone. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/24 "2005-05-20T21:57:37Z")
I suspect you may very well be right, **Dan**. Trouble is there are so few facts to rely on. I can’t believe what _anybody_ tells me from there, least of all my own damn gummint. If our presence is the only thing holding back a full scale civil shootout, the question becomes how long are we willing to endure this shit in order to prevent a civil eruption that may very well be inevitable. What can we look forward to that might give us leave to skeedaddle? We claim to help by training and equipping an Iraqi government force, but wouldn’t we be simply arming and training one _faction_ of the impending melee? If the Iraqi government decides to oppress the Sunni minority, whose side are we on _then_? If I had any realistic hope that our presence would lead to a civil and political stability in Iraq, even of a relatively rough and tumble variety, I would be inclined to hold out. But I’m haunted by Kerry’s words about asking someone to be the last guy to die for a blunder. That’s just enough to push me over the edge into “Get the Hell out of Dodge”. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/25 "2005-05-20T22:01:18Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > I’m not so sure of that. I find myself leaning increasingly towards **elucidator** ’s view… You know what? I don’t even _like_ my view! I wish to Pete I had a _different_ view, I wish I had any _basis_ for a more optimistic view. I’m a pessimist, it ain’t a lot of fun, but you don’t get surprised very often, and, when you do, you’re usually glad of it. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/26 "2005-05-20T22:04:03Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > To leave now would be to guarantee putting a warlord in power. We’d just end up with Saddam version 2.0. (Then again, we won’t accomplish much by staying in, either. We’re just plain fucked.) But if we leave now, we get fucked for a lot less money. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/27 "2005-05-20T22:05:04Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > I am entertaining serious doubts if there is _anything_ we can do that will forstall a full-scale civil war for more than a week or so after we’re gone. I’m sure many of you remember the indignation of the warmongers in pre-invasion debates when those opposed would caution about the possibility of getting stuck in the sort of quagmire that has no satisfying outcome. Wonder what they call the predicament the US’s been placed in? ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/28 "2005-05-20T22:13:59Z")
I’m sure they would point to President Bush’s speech about how this would be a long, drawn out process, and we knew this going in. Which, IIRC, is one of the reasons many of us were opposed to it in the first damn place. ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/29 "2005-05-20T22:32:53Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > :: so shocked that he accidentally hits enter and has to restart the post :: > > Uh, whoosh . . . man, did you at least look at the second paragraph before you replied? Cuz, uh, you _really_ missed my meaning. And on rereading, I’m still pretty sure the sarcasm was clear. I mean, “Why do you hate America?” is actually kind of an old joke by now. You are right, **Excalibre** , and I apologize for being so short-fused. I was expecting to be attacked by _some_body, and I thought you were it. I’m not really a jerk, although you couldn’t prove that by my last post. I’ll try to do better. Consider yourself un-fucked, and I’m sure you don’t ride porcine ponies. (I was going to use the “embarrassed” smiley here, but it looks like one of those blow-up dolls that does oral . . . not that I would know.) ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/30 "2005-05-21T01:28:17Z")
> [@DesertGeezer](#): > > I was expecting to be attacked by _some_body, and I thought you were it. It’s remarkable, actually, how the Heartland Hawks show up less and less often in these milestones-on-the-slow-march-to-hell threads. I used to think we on the anti-war side leaped to the “is it Vietnam yet?” question a bit too soon after the Mission Accomplished banner was unfurled, but these days, it seems to have been precisely the right thing to ask. Too bad nobody was listening. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/31 "2005-05-21T01:34:57Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > Not only that the WMD were _there_, but that they knew where they were. And/or that said WMDs included a nuclear program. [Homer] That’s newkewlar [/Homer] ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/32 "2005-05-21T01:43:04Z")
I’m going to change my position on this. Kerry’s statement about “the last guy” is very true and a bit of a waqke up call at the same time. I remember how relieved I was when Nixon called it quits in Viet Nam (I was in the Army, and might have eventually gone myself). Iraq IS a quagmire, and whether we stay or leave, they will keep fighting. There is a government set up there (so to speak). We can support them with money and advice and sweetheart trade deals. Finally, by staying we are wasting our own people’s lives and giving our enemies yet more excuses to blame us for everything. Sooner or later, the new government will have to stand on its own. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/33 "2005-05-21T02:09:11Z")
We need a sarcasm Smile very badly. We need one because things are rapidly getting to the stage that reality and parody are hard to distinguish from each other unless you have prior knowledge of the author’s posture on the question. Two years ago and more there were people around here saying there was no rational justification for the invasion and that an invasion would inevitably turn into an occupation and the occupation into a widespread and volatile insurgency and civil war. Analogies were made to Napoleon III’s Mexican adventure, parallels drawn with the Spanish conquest of Central America under the pretext of spreading the word of God to the benighted heathens. Those views were strongly attacked by others of our friends who assured us that the President and his people had reliable information, some of which was secret and could not be disclosed, and had good reason to think that the invasion was not only necessary but necessary _now_, without delay. They told us that because if Iraq’s vast oil reserves an the nature of the international market the cost of the invasion and brief occupation to facilitate rise of a Western style parliamentary democracy would be minimal. They said that the United States needed no one’s consent to do this because we were now the Big Dawg and the Big Dawg pissed where he wanted. Well the Big Dawg as done a fair amount of pissing pretty much all over the place but to a great extent down its own leg. The reality of the thing is starting to appear. That reality, I suspect, and the realization that this Administration has dissipated much of its good will, has much to do with the present unseemly haste to stuff the Circuit Courts while there is still time. There is a limit to just how long you can keep public support when even the Administration’s house organ TV network can not hide Iraq’s spiral into disorder and violence and the bottomless pit for American treasure, prestige and blood it has become. No one can say that the Administration was not warned that it was cooking the dynamite. There is no joy to be gained from being right on this one. The lousy thing is that we have mounted the tiger and there is no good way to get off. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/34 "2005-05-21T03:16:54Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > As Colin Powell might say, “You broke it, you bought it”. We made the mess. We are then responsible for fixing it. I was against the “war of liberation” from the start. I am in principle against “nation building”. However, we need to fix the mess we created, not cut and run because it is now “politically inconvenient”. This sounds like the guy who took the rent money to Vegas, and lost half of it. His reasoning is he has to keep playing, or he will never win it back. That is the situation we find ourselves in now; we have lost half the rent, and are hoping like hell we can win it back. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/35 "2005-05-21T04:57:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > We claim to help by training and equipping an Iraqi government force, but wouldn’t we be simply arming and training one _faction_ of the impending melee? If the Iraqi government decides to oppress the Sunni minority, whose side are we on _then_? [Oh, yeh, we’re training them, all right.](http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/05/20/us_military_records_detail_abuse_of_detainees_by_iraqis/) Only we seem to be using Abu Ghraib and Gitmo for models: > [@](#): > > Before leaving Iraq in February, the US 1st Cavalry Division compiled a list of more than 100 allegations of abusive treatment of detainees over the previous six months – not by US troops, but by Iraqi soldiers and police. > > The 3rd Infantry Division, which has since taken over responsibility for the Baghdad region, has recorded 28 more such allegations, 15 of which have been substantiated, division lawyers say. > > These previously undisclosed US military records documenting Iraqi mistreatment of detainees – often accompanied by photos showing prisoners bruised or cut – highlight what US commanders are calling a high-priority concern. > > [snip] > > US officers say they regularly warn the Iraqis that failure to curtail abusive behavior could tarnish the image of the new security services, risking a loss of Iraqi public support, and jeopardizing US and other foreign assistance. > > Privately, US commanders also express worry about their troops getting drawn into an Iraqi dirty war, particularly as several thousand military advisers embed this year with Iraqi units, putting them in a position to witness abusive action or be accused of acquiescing to it. The US military has spent the past year struggling to get out from under the shadow of mistreatment by soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison and other detention facilities in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Pete Seeger had it nailed: > [@](#): > > We were lucky to get out of the Big Muddy > When the damn fool kept yelling to push on. > > Well, you might not want to draw conclusions > I’ll leave that to yourself > Maybe you’re still walking, maybe you’re still talking > Maybe you’ve still got your health. > But every time I hear the news > That old feeling comes back on; > We’re waist deep in the Big Muddy > And the damn fools kept yelling to push on. > > Knee deep in the Big Muddy > And the damn fools keep yelling to push on > Waist deep in the Big Muddy > And the damn fools keep yelling to push on > Waist deep! Neck deep! we’ll be drowning before too long > We’re neck deep in the Big Muddy > And the damn fools keep yelling to push on ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/36 "2005-05-21T06:08:20Z")
Amen, Mr Seeger. We got shit forty years ago, we got shit two years ago, but it just goes to show that morons run this country. ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/37 "2005-05-21T08:40:44Z")
Am I the ony one who has noticed that the deaths of American soldiers in Iraq are now little more than footnotes in the back pages? I pity the families who have kids over there. They live in terror every day, and we have a White House who will go to bat for a brain dead woman in Florida, but will do nothing but mouth meaningless platitudes about kids, just kids, getting blown up in Iraq. The irony is that a lot of those kids come from those Red states…and now that the election is over, well…on to business as usual. Is anyone reading the none-to-subte hints that recruitment is at an all time low and “something” needs to be done? Playing on patriotism doesn’t seem to be working, with parents or new recruits. Gee…wonder why? Oh, and get ready folks…Iran is next. Maybe that is the grand plan to get us out of Iraq? Simply take the troops cross the border and start a new war! Gets us out of Iraq and maybe they will be easier to conquer! ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/38 "2005-05-21T14:29:22Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > This sounds like the guy who took the rent money to Vegas, and lost half of it. His reasoning is he has to keep playing, or he will never win it back. That is the situation we find ourselves in now; we have lost half the rent, and are hoping like hell we can win it back. Pretty much. After some thought, I changed my view (see above posts). The pity of it is, the people truly responsible will never be called to account. They could have taught John Gotti a few things about Teflon. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/39 "2005-05-21T20:33:21Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > The lousy thing is that we have mounted the tiger and there is no good way to get off. Pretty apt, that. Although I can’t help but feel that to leave now would piss things up even more than ever. I know the reasons for getting the hell out, but I keep going back to the fact that the United States of America is responsible for the miserable cock up that is Iraq. Iraqis had better basic services before we went in there and started pissing all over the place, and I’m fairly certain that they could get to the airport without the 5th Cavalry riding shotgun. But seriously, doesn’t anyone else feel that it’s our responsibility to clean up the mess that we made? Because I can’t help but feel that the US bears a helluva lot of reponsibility. > [@DMark](#): > > Oh, and get ready folks…Iran is next. Maybe that is the grand plan to get us out of Iraq? Simply take the troops cross the border and start a new war! Gets us out of Iraq and maybe they will be easier to conquer! I don’t think that there’s a chance in hell of this happening. Christ, the US is already stretched about as thin as can be. If someone gets the bright idea to start the second verse in **any** country, even one next door to where we’re currently peacekeeping (an arch smiley would appear here, if I believed in such a thing), then the military strength of the US would pretty quickly dissipate. Paranoid though it may sound, that would require reinstation of the draft. And I can’t imagine that happening. Those who have a capital R after their names wanna win at least another election or two, after all. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/40 "2005-05-21T22:17:49Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > I keep going back to the fact that the United States of America is responsible for the miserable cock up that is Iraq. … > But seriously, doesn’t anyone else feel that it’s our responsibility to clean up the mess that we made? Because I can’t help but feel that the US bears a helluva lot of reponsibility. That’s the problem. I feel the same way about our responsibility, but at the same time, I don’t see how we can keep using up our people in something that keeps getting worse. I simply don’t know what the right answer is. On the one hand, I want us to fix our mistakes. On the other hand, how could I tell someone he has to go get shot because we fucked up to begin with? Either way, we blew it real good from the start. I see nothing good coming out of this no matter what we do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764.md?page=3)