# From "Shock and Awe" to Aw, Shit! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764 "2005-05-20T16:51:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/41 "2005-05-21T22:27:55Z")
So why not cut the losses? Just bring 'em home. Stop meddling in other people’s eternal squabbles. (No, not isolationism — butting into people’s business and trading with people are two different things.) Let everybody know that we’re sorry we’ve been acting like a jackass for a couple of generations now. America is good at building businesses, not empires. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/42 "2005-05-21T22:31:48Z")
That looks like the only option. They have their new government now, let them at least try to make it work. If they are bound and determined to exterminate each other, they can do it without our help. ---
**Author:** ![sewalk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@sewalk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sewalk)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/43 "2005-05-21T22:34:33Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > The lousy thing is that we have mounted the tiger and there is no good way to get off. Nice metaphor but I like mine better: Br’er Rabbit has done gone and stuck his fist in the tar baby. We’ll get out eventually but it’s going to be a big, nasty, sticky mess. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/44 "2005-05-21T23:10:25Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > So why not cut the losses? Just bring 'em home. Stop meddling in other people’s eternal squabbles. (No, not isolationism — butting into people’s business and trading with people are two different things.) Let everybody know that we’re sorry we’ve been acting like a jackass for a couple of generations now. America is good at building businesses, not empires. :eek: About time we agreed on something. Unfortunatedly, I don’t see it happening. Bush’s painted himself – and your country – into a corner with his constant macho-man posturing. It’ll be up to you (in the collective sense) to find a way out. Wish you all the best. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/45 "2005-05-21T23:12:19Z")
Bush **can’t** just pull troops out of Iraq, for exactly the same reason that he put them **into** Iraq in the first place. Small word, three letters, starts with an **O** , ends in an **L**. If the US pulls out of Iraq and the place turns out hostile for Dubya’s oil pals, well, it will have all been a waste of time and money and they’d be back to square one. Dubya’s oil pals aren’t going to stand for that. As for how long this will go on… I still stand by [a post I made shortly after Saddam and Bagdad fell.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=3263780&postcount=62) (A post that, although I say it myself, has proven to be spot on.) Don’t expect anything to change any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/46 "2005-05-21T23:26:53Z")
> [@](#): > > doesn’t anyone else feel that it’s our responsibility to clean up the mess that we made? The you break it, you fix it rule must be tempered with the understanding that no matter what you try, you cannot unscramble eggs. We’ve done irreversible things to Iraq. It looks as if we’ve touched off a civil war. Once it gets going, nothing we do, short of turning the whole country flat and glassy, will stop it. At some point, the most humane thing for us to do will be to leave, and let them get on with sorting out their own future in whatever bloody fashion they need to. ---
**Author:** ![sewalk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@sewalk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sewalk)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/47 "2005-05-21T23:30:13Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > Small word, three letters, starts with an **O** , ends in an **L**. _OWL_?? I don’t see any cause to attach some kind of symbol implying wisdom on the invasion of Iraq with only two divisions. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/48 "2005-05-21T23:47:04Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > The you break it, you fix it rule must be tempered with the understanding that no matter what you try, you cannot unscramble eggs. We’ve done irreversible things to Iraq. It looks as if we’ve touched off a civil war. Once it gets going, nothing we do, short of turning the whole country flat and glassy, will stop it. At some point, the most humane thing for us to do will be to leave, and let them get on with sorting out their own future in whatever bloody fashion they need to. I know, and at some point I’ll (damn me thrice) wind up agreeing with you, I’m sure. For now, though, I continue to think that it falls to us to at least attempt to try and right our wrongs. I’m damned if I know how to do it, but I think it should be done. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/49 "2005-05-21T23:59:29Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > I’m damned if I know how to do it, but I think it should be done. It is **not** a comfort to me that the _only people_ who can actually come up with and implement a plan to fix things, are the same set of fools who busted things in the first place. There’s been not even the tiniest bit of a sign that the scales are falling from any of their eyes, and soon it will be too late. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2005, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/50 "2005-05-22T00:28:12Z")
'Struth, first read friend **Fute** ’s “O” and “L”, I thought he was headed for “Osama bin Laden.” Apparently, after all these years, the drugs are finally taking effect. Tonight, listened to “Capital Gang” while I bustle about in my domestic chores. Damn near dropped my feather duster when heard Bob Novak come out in no uncertain terms for the “Get the Hell out of BaghDodge” school of thought. Its like all the really nasty questions, it has no irrefutable answer. As much as I recognize our responsibilities, I have come reluctantly to accept that we should cut our losses and bugger off. Sometimes all you can do is cuss and spit teeth. But I have this moment of pause: it appears from the more recent news that the schisms in Iraq are breaking down along implicitly religious lines. Now, a civil strife for political power is bad enough, but religious stife seems to have an extra-special capacity for bringing out the worst in monkeys. We can’t predict the results, and it makes our rationales tremble with futility. If Iraq falls into a brief spasm of civil unrest, and a reasonable compromise results, who can say this would be anything but miraculous? But if it degenerates into a _religious_ conflict, this becomes a whole different kettle of piranha. I’m not so frightened in dire situations, when I know what to do. I don’t have any idea, and that tightens my sphincter with enough force to crush a ball-bearing. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2005, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/51 "2005-05-22T04:04:24Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > Pretty apt, that. Although I can’t help but feel that to leave now would piss things up even more than ever. I know the reasons for getting the hell out, but I keep going back to the fact that the United States of America is responsible for the miserable cock up that is Iraq. Iraqis had better basic services before we went in there and started pissing all over the place, and I’m fairly certain that they could get to the airport without the 5th Cavalry riding shotgun. I’m not so sure about the basic quality of life for average Iraquis being worse, **GLWasteful**. Life under Saddam was a very nervous business, tiptoeing around an erratic tyrant and his despicable offspring and cronies. He was the proverbial pissant who, well, actually _didn’t_ make the trains run on time. The one thing he did was stifle all the warring factions by terrorizing anybody who looked at him crossways. Or just happened to be handy. Life in a war zone must be hell but unfortunately Dubya’s ridiculously ill-conceived lust to change the unlovely status quo apparently brushed right over the immensely complex religious, ethnic and economic dysfunctions. The damnable fool lied to start a war without having the least idea–much less subtlety or persuasion–to forge a workable nation. Shit, the idiot is so arrogantly blind he cut new divisions among _Americans_, even in his own political party. He can’t even honor separation of church and state at home, much less constitutional protections against govermental meddling and interference with citizens’ lives. I’m on record all the way back for wanting very badly to be wrong for mistrusting the rationale and consequences of Dubya’s war. I hoped against hope he had statesmanlike strengths I just didn’t see. I thought he handled the chaos of 9/11 pretty well. Unfortunately, he retreated into bombast and reflexive aggression under horrendous demands of the office. He’s probably a pretty decent guy who’d make a helluva machine pol in a lower office and less demanding circumstances. There’s an expression…‘over-engined for his beam’? And I’m baffled, and sickened, again. I don’t know what the US can do now to salvage the mess, for anybody. Politically and morally, it’s our responsiblity. We knowingly kicked over a hill of fire ants. I’m not sure that even a miraculously convenient statesman post-Dubya could salvage this cluster fuck. Maybe just _leaving_ is the best (horrible) choice for everyone, given that more war and clunky occupation will just inflame the wounds more. I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2005, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/52 "2005-05-22T11:18:02Z")
Sadly Bush’s sense of morality has spread. Our ‘beloved’ Leader Tony Blair says he has nothing to apologise for over Iraq, and that we must all put it behind us and stop harping on about it. Perhaps the war in Iraq will end before the War on Drugs does. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/53 "2005-05-22T14:35:13Z")
Too bad our leaders never have the honesty or the courage to admit their mistakes. How many lives will be thrown away, because they don’t want to admit the obvious? How many years will be lost because they think their personal “image” means more than human lives? We need another Nixon. He may not have been perfect, but he at least knew when it was time to call it quits. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/54 "2005-05-22T16:40:04Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > I’m not so sure about the basic quality of life for average Iraquis being worse, **GLWasteful**. Life under Saddam was a very nervous business, tiptoeing around an erratic tyrant and his despicable offspring and cronies. He was the proverbial pissant who, well, actually _didn’t_ make the trains run on time. The one thing he did was stifle all the warring factions by terrorizing anybody who looked at him crossways. Or just happened to be handy. Don’t misunderstand me, I’m not saying that life was peaches and beer under Hussein, but Iraqis had little things like electricity and potable water, which they’ve got a helluva lot less of since a certain Mission was declared Accomplished. Like you, I thought that immediately post 9/11, Bush was looking like he might wind up being a fairly decent leader. Since then I’ve watched him piss away any and all goodwill extended, and get us chin deep in shit that I’m not sure we can ever extricate ourselves from. > [@TVeblen](#): > > And I’m baffled, and sickened, again. I don’t know what the US can do now to salvage the mess, for anybody. Politically and morally, it’s our responsiblity. We knowingly kicked over a hill of fire ants. I’m not sure that even a miraculously convenient statesman post-Dubya could salvage this cluster fuck. And it’s because of the “knowingly” portion of your quote that I still think we oughta stay and continue to try and fix what we fucked up. Alas, I imagine that you’re right that there’s very probably no one who can make any of Iraqle look good. Whether short-term or long. And that sucks. Powerful sucks. And as I said earlier, I’ll probably wind up being one of those who says, “Get the hell out, now!” But for now, I continue to believe that we as a nation owe it to Iraq to try and make things better. Maybe it can’t be done. Again, the powerful sucking alluded to above. Like you, I just don’t **know** , and that’s frustrating as hell. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/55 "2005-05-22T18:20:52Z")
About the onlything we can do now is cut a deal with the Kurds (arm them, and announce we will extend them air support). Then, tell the “leaders” of the Shite and Sunni factions the folllowing: "we are going to let you guys slaughter each other. As long as you do not attack us,you are free to bomb each other’s mosques, and otherwise assist in your own martyrdom. " We will retreat to fortified bases by the Gulf/Tigris estuary, and maintain the oil flow. But no venturing out, no US troops getting blown up. As soon as the siyuation quiets down, we leave! ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/56 "2005-05-23T01:15:48Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > We will retreat to fortified bases by the Gulf/Tigris estuary, and maintain the oil flow. But no venturing out, no US troops getting blown up. As soon as the siyuation quiets down, we leave! Better to get out completely. The policy of “maintaining a presence” is bad both politically and militarily. It would be a case of sending people to sit and be targets, with no authorization to fight back in any meaningful way, when they get attacked. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/57 "2005-05-23T20:17:51Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > So why not cut the losses? Just bring 'em home. Stop meddling in other people’s eternal squabbles. (No, not isolationism — butting into people’s business and trading with people are two different things.) Let everybody know that we’re sorry we’ve been acting like a jackass for a couple of generations now. America is good at building businesses, not empires. I would love to agree with you, but I feel like we have a responsibility to, if not fix things, then make them less bad. How? I have no fucking clue. I do know that it would have to involve making our troops invisible and less of a target. My impression from the news is that they are generating aggro just by being there, and that’s never a good thing for an occupier. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/58 "2005-05-23T21:32:39Z")
> [@Maus Magill](#): > > I would love to agree with you, but I feel like we have a responsibility to, if not fix things, then make them less bad. > > How? I have no fucking clue. Perhaps by taking the step that will result in a cessation of the aggro-generating: Getting the hell out. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/59 "2005-05-24T09:31:51Z")
> [@Maus Magill](#): > > I would love to agree with you, but I feel like we have a responsibility to, if not fix things, then make them less bad. I suppose an incompetent butcher could sew the head back on the lady’s cat. But he’s probably an incompetent seamster as well. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/60 "2005-05-24T12:14:48Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I suppose an incompetent butcher could sew the head back on the lady’s cat. But he’s probably an incompetent seamster as well. It’s just the old Boy Scout in me that says you should always leave a place nicer than you found it. Mr. McKellar never told us what to do when that was impossible. “Always leave a place and try not to get blown up on the way out?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764.md?page=4)