# From space, North Dakota's resource management looks pretty crappy **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2013, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335 "2013-03-19T05:37:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335/1 "2013-03-19T05:37:04Z")
[This article](http://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/2012/0713/Thanks-to-North-Dakota-US-waste-of-natural-gas-grows-rapidly) shows the damning photo right up top: > [@](#): > > About 5 trillion cubic feet (b.c.f.) of natural gas were flared or vented without burning worldwide last year. That huge amount of wasted energy is roughly equal to a quarter of all natural gas consumed in the US annually, the World Bank reports. Flaring also dumped 360 million tons of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere over the same period, equal to the exhaust of 70 million cars. From [here](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/27/business/energy-environment/in-north-dakota-wasted-natural-gas-flickers-against-the-sky.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0): > [@](#): > > The gas bubbles up alongside the far more valuable oil, and with less economic incentive to capture it, the drillers treat the gas as waste and simply burn it. > > Every day, more than 100 million cubic feet of natural gas is flared this way — enough energy to heat half a million homes for a day. I realize there is an oil boom going on, but is it possible that this resource could be managed in such a way that a massive amount of energy resource is not wastefully squandered and burned off? Especially considering that fracking is controversial and allegedly threatens to destroy this land for any other use… do you [North Dakota] think you could not squander the end for which this land is potentially being destroyed? How about we don’t destroy natural resources regardless of the destruction of the surrounding lands?!?11! If we were trying to keep the armies of General Erich Ludenforff away from the fields of Rumania, sure, I could probably understand it even if I still didn’t like it. If we were the Soviets plotting to sabotage Baku if the Nazis threatened to take it, yah sure it is a strategic move no matter how tragic. If we were Saddam Hussein setting aflame the oilfields of Kuwait just to be the dick who proves he can destroy them, it is bullshit but still at least an act of war. [_Look at this!_](http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/27/business/27flare-gfc.html) What the\* fuck\*, North Dakota? ---
**Author:** ![loshan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce73a5/32.png) [@loshan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/loshan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335/2 "2013-03-19T05:45:37Z")
I grew up in West Texas and 12 years after moving from there, I am still suprised when it is overcast at night and the sky isn’t orange from flares. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335/3 "2013-03-19T09:42:56Z")
> [@loshan](#): > > I grew up in West Texas and 12 years after moving from there, I am still suprised when it is overcast at night and the sky isn’t orange from flares. Holy shit! You just made me think about why the sky always looked weird when it was cloudy around Houston, how did I not realize this before:smack: ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335/4 "2013-03-19T14:32:04Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > What the\* fuck\*, North Dakota? So buy it. All you have to do is pay enough for the gas to make it worth collecting. If, on the other hand, you’re suggesting that other people ought to go a great deal of trouble to soothe your butthurtedness at their own cost in time and money, then I suspect you won’t get much sympathy. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335/5 "2013-03-19T14:38:08Z")
More than we used to. More every day. But so far, its still business as usual. They’re giving us the business, as usual. We could all die rich, but just a lot sooner ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335/6 "2013-03-19T14:45:09Z")
From space, no one can hear you scream. ---
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335/7 "2013-03-19T16:22:19Z")
> [@](#): > > In North Dakota, flaring is “due to insufficient natural gas pipeline capacity and processing facilities in the Bakken shale region,” the Energy Information Administration (EIA) reported in November. > [@](#): > > “We need to continue to build the infrastructure and get [the infrastructure] put in place to handle that natural gas,” says Alison Ritter, a spokeswoman for the North Dakota Department of Mineral Resources in Bismarck. “We’re not happy about the flaring. But this Bakken field is still relatively new area and very rural. So it will take some time to get it built.” They can’t move it, yet. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335/8 "2013-03-19T16:38:17Z")
Butthurt OP is butthurt. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335/9 "2013-03-19T19:29:15Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Butthurt OP is butthurt. Hey, if you were venting 100 million cubic feet of natural gas every day, you would be too. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335/10 "2013-03-19T19:37:16Z")
> [@Trom](#): > > They can’t move it, yet. Yeah, from what I understand, natural gas pipelines are very prone to leakage, and that, combined with the safety concerns, makes it very difficult (relative to petroleum pipelines) to efficiently and economically build the necessary infrastructure to distribute it over long distances. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335/11 "2013-03-19T19:46:36Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Butthurt OP is butthurt. > [@Rachellelogram](#): > > Hey, if you were venting 100 million cubic feet of natural gas every day, you would be too. Win! ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335/12 "2013-03-19T19:47:57Z")
If the gas were to be captured and used for heating/some other purpose, would the environmental effect be the same? Lessened? Assuming the answer is yes, this kind of things, where the benefit is for ALL of us, and the environment, can only be accomplished with the government stepping in and telling the oil companies that they have to use some sort of capture method so that the gas can be used. As evident from some of the comments on this thread already, corporations don’t give a damn about the environment or helping their communities. All they care about is money. ---
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335/13 "2013-03-19T19:54:10Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > If the gas were to be captured and used for heating/some other purpose, would the environmental effect be the same? Lessened? > > Assuming the answer is yes, this kind of things, where the benefit is for ALL of us, and the environment, can only be accomplished with the government stepping in and telling the oil companies that they have to use some sort of capture method so that the gas can be used. > > As evident from some of the comments on this thread already, corporations don’t give a damn about the environment or helping their communities. All they care about is money. Not necessarily. Of course the main driver for oil and gas companies is money, but you think they \*like \*wasting all that natural gas? As said, there isn’t the infrastructure to handle those volumes of natural gas in the U.S., and things are just starting here in Canada. But it’s not going to be used here - it’s headed for Asia, where natrual gas is (or will soon be) a prime hydrocarbon. Most of the major players have associated gas recovery plans, which minimizes flaring and venting of natural gas (although imo, venting should be 100% banned, like it is or almost is in most regions of Canada), however, what do they do with it? They’re producing oil, here comes the natural gas, but…where’s the pipeline to put it in? There is none. So they have to flare it. If they could sell it, they would. ---
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335/14 "2013-03-19T19:59:02Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Yeah, from what I understand, natural gas pipelines are very prone to leakage, and that, combined with the safety concerns, makes it very difficult (relative to petroleum pipelines) to efficiently and economically build the necessary infrastructure to distribute it over long distances. I don’t know where this came from. There are few issues with transporting natural gas. It’s put under pressure and transported as a liquid (LNG). Yes, there are safety concerns (explosions), but they are similar to safety concerns with sour oil and gas, which we transport everywhere. LNG is also less of an environmental concern than oil because it just dissipates rather than runs in to creeks and oceans. That is why you hear all the uproar about things like Keystone and Northern Gateway (both oil pipelines) but nothing about the Pacific Trail Pipeline, which parallels the Northern Gateway through British Columbia. We just have to find the market for it. This is not a case of ‘if you build it, they will come’. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335/15 "2013-03-19T21:12:19Z")
Everyone is just trying to cash in as fast as they can and not giving a shit about the long-term effects on the environment - or the economy when the resources run out. Don’t mind me, I’m just a butthurt 20-something that is pissed at being priced out of everything at home because suddenly I’m not on the rigs making $100k a year. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335/16 "2013-03-19T21:45:59Z")
> [@EmAnJ](#): > > I don’t know where this came from. There are few issues with transporting natural gas. It’s put under pressure and transported as a liquid (LNG). Yes, there are safety concerns (explosions), but they are similar to safety concerns with sour oil and gas, which we transport everywhere. LNG is also less of an environmental concern than oil because it just dissipates rather than runs in to creeks and oceans. I didn’t say it wasn’t doable, and I’m no expert, but my impression was (and is, after some wiki’ing) that it’s certainly more challenging and expensive than you seem to think. Feel free to correct anything if you know more… From wiki: (bolding of the most relevant bits are mine) > [@wiki](#): > > LNG achieves a higher reduction in volume than compressed natural gas (CNG) so that the energy density of LNG is 2.4 times heavier than that of CNG or 60% of that of diesel fuel. This makes LNG cost efficient to transport over long distances where pipelines do not exist. **Specially designed cryogenic sea vessels (LNG carriers) or cryogenic road tankers are used for its transport.** > > LNG is principally used for transporting natural gas to markets, where it is regasified and distributed as pipeline natural gas. It can be used in natural gas vehicles, although it is more common to design vehicles to use compressed natural gas. **Its relatively high cost of production and the need to store it in expensive cryogenic tanks have hindered widespread commercial use.** > > **\** > > In 1980s the cost of building an LNG liquefaction plant cost $350 per tpa (tonne per year). In 2000s, it was $200/tpa. \*\*In 2012, the costs can go as high as $1000/tpa, partly due to the increase in the price of steel. > \*\* > As recently as 2003, it was common to assume that this was a “learning curve” effect and would continue into the future. **But this perception of steadily falling costs for LNG has been dashed in the last several years.** > > The construction cost of green-field LNG projects started to skyrocket from 2004 afterward and has increased from about $400 per ton per year of capacity to $1000 per ton per year of capacity in 2008. > \*\* > \\*\* > > **LNG must be kept cold to remain a liquid, independent of pressure. Despite efficient insulation, there will inevitably be some heat leakage into the LNG, resulting in vapourisation of the LNG.** This boil-off gas acts to keep the LNG cold. The boil-off gas is typically compressed and exported as natural gas, or is reliquefied and returned to storage. > > **\** > > LNG is transported in specially designed ships with double hulls protecting the cargo systems from damage or leaks. There are several special leak test methods available to test the integrity of an LNG vessel’s membrane cargo tanks. > > The tankers cost around $200 million each. > > Transportation and supply is an important aspect of the gas business, since natural gas reserves are normally quite distant from consumer markets. Natural gas has far more volume than oil to transport, and most gas is transported by pipelines. There is a natural gas pipeline network in the former Soviet Union, Europe and North America. **Natural gas is less dense, even at higher pressures. Natural gas will travel much faster than oil through a high-pressure pipeline, but can transmit only about a fifth of the amount of energy per day due to the lower density.** Natural gas is usually liquefied to LNG at the end of the pipeline, prior to shipping. > > Short LNG pipelines for use in moving product from LNG vessels to onshore storage are available. **Longer pipelines, which allow vessels to offload LNG at a greater distance from port facilities are under development. This requires pipe in pipe technology due to requirements for keeping the LNG cold.** > **[Liquefied natural gas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas)** > > Liquefied natural gas (LNG) is natural gas (predominantly methane, CH4, with some mixture of ethane, C2H6) that has been cooled to liquid form for ease and safety of non-pressurized storage or transport. It takes up about 1/600th the volume of natural gas in the gaseous state at standard conditions for temperature and pressure. > LNG is odorless, colorless, non-toxic and non-corrosive. Hazards include flammability after vaporization into a gaseous state, freezing and asphyxia. The liquefaction p... ---
**Author:** ![dzeiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@dzeiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzeiger)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335/17 "2013-03-19T21:55:15Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > If the gas were to be captured and used for heating/some other purpose, would the environmental effect be the same? Lessened? As a broad brush, the effect would be lessened simply because putting the natural gas to use as an energy source would lessen the need for other energy. That is, if I need 1000 units of energy, and for every 700 units of oil I also get 300 units of gas, I could meet my energy needs there–but if I just burn off the gas, then I need to get 300 more units of oil to meet my needs, thus causing more impact. I’m not sure I can accept the “ways to handle it aren’t here yet” argument. If I build a home in the middle of nowhere, I still have to find a way to handle my sewage and trash–I can’t just go dumping it into a river because nobody’s build a sewage pipe out to me yet. That’s part of the cost of me building a house out there. ---
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335/18 "2013-03-19T22:17:14Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > I didn’t say it wasn’t doable, and I’m no expert, but my impression was (and is, after some wiki’ing) that it’s certainly more challenging and expensive than you seem to think. > > Feel free to correct anything if you know more… From wiki: (bolding of the most relevant bits are mine) > [Liquefied natural gas - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas) The majority of your link is correct, or close to it. It is very expensive because of the need to pressurize and transport cold. But what I was commenting on was your statement that these pipelines are more prone to leaks, which they are not. I suppose you could assume that because of the more complicated technology required to build these pipelines, but I do think that is just an assumption. As far as I’m aware, the leak rate for NG pipeline and oil pipelines is similar. I am unsure about the wiki link’s assertion that the cost to build a terminal is estimated at $1000/tpa for 2012. Here is a link about the economics of LNG: [Linky](http://shareholdersunite.com/the-ioc-files-useful-background-material/the-economics-of-lng/) Essentially, it says that to make the production of NG, construction of pipelines, terminals, transportation, and regassification economic, there needs to be a big enough resource to supply for 20 years. This is occuring in some areas and 20 year contracts (mostly with Asia) have been secured. For instance, [Gorgon in Australia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgon_gas_project)and [Kitimat LNG](http://www.kitimatlngfacility.com/)in British Columbia. These two examples hing(ed) on securing 20 year supply as well as 20 year contracts with purchasers to make production, transport and downstream economic. ---
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335/19 "2013-03-19T22:20:17Z")
> [@dzeiger](#): > > As a broad brush, the effect would be lessened simply because putting the natural gas to use as an energy source would lessen the need for other energy. > > That is, if I need 1000 units of energy, and for every 700 units of oil I also get 300 units of gas, I could meet my energy needs there–but if I just burn off the gas, then I need to get 300 more units of oil to meet my needs, thus causing more impact. > > I’m not sure I can accept the “ways to handle it aren’t here yet” argument. If I build a home in the middle of nowhere, I still have to find a way to handle my sewage and trash–I can’t just go dumping it into a river because nobody’s build a sewage pipe out to me yet. That’s part of the cost of me building a house out there. Ok, let’s stop all production of crude oil until we find a solution to this! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335/20 "2013-03-19T22:27:56Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Holy shit! You just made me think about why the sky always looked weird when it was cloudy around Houston, how did I not realize this before:smack: Pretty sure that’s from light pollution (sports fields, street lights, general nighttime lighting) reflecting off the clouds, not flames. I mean, Houston has pretty bad air pollution, but it’s not _that_ bad! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-space-north-dakotas-resource-management-looks-pretty-crappy/653335.md?page=2)