Well damn. Guess I’ll have to make new weekend plans then.
…well you now know what most people consider “sexual harassment” to mean. Is there any need to nitpick the term any more? You have your answer. People think that sexual harassment includes things like asking a cashier to have sex in exchange for buying all the donuts in the store. That you disagree with the definition won’t change our ability to have a proper discussion. You know what we mean. Quibbling over the definition won’t lead to “proper discussion.” It distracts from proper discussion. Is that your intent?
So why do you think asking a cashier if they will have sex in exchange for all the donuts is a bad idea? Why do you think its a big deal? Why do you think that it is completely fucking stupid?
I really can’t see any possible way you could have asked the hypothetical that you did without having some sort of blindspot on what is and isn’t normal. I’ll take your previous sentence as a concession that you now don’t think its normal. That this behavior that would make the cashier uncomfortable, and would be a pretty big deal. Is that correct?
It certainly appears to fit the definition of sexual harassment that you cited. Can you explain how it doesn’t?
Well, I know what the few people who posted in the thread mean, so there is that.
LOL, because it’s rude and dickish behavior. So are lots of things that are still not sexual harassment.
I don’t know if it’s THAT big of a deal. But okay, if you say so. I asked this same hypothetical during my sexual harassment training, where the actions have to be more than one time in order for it to be a “Hostile Work Environment” And the answer I got was “We are not sure, but don’t do it anyway” Seems like that is still the same answer today. Strange.
Because I don’t feel a one time question fits the definition of “hostile work environment”. Of course, I’m not a lawyer.
…the people who are posting in this thread are the people who are participating in this thread. Where you expecting people not in this thread to answer your question?
LOL. Just FYI: rude and diskish behaviour can also be sexual harassment.
If you are not the cashier then you do not get to decide how “big a deal” it is.
This doesn’t surprise me at all.
What does the definition of “hostile work environment” have to do with the definition of “sexual harassment?”
That isn’t the answer you have gotten in this thread. If you want to see what the answers you have gotten in this thread then read the people who have replied to you. And I strongly suspect that wasn’t the answer you got during your “sexual harassment training” as well.
Does walking into a bank and saying to the teller “if I don’t shoot you, will you give me all of your money?” qualify as a “one time question?” Is that a bank robbery, or just rude and dickish behavior?
Why would you need to be a lawyer?
Can you make up your mind if you are quibbling over the definition of “hostile work environment” or “sexual harassment?” And when you are finished doing that, would you care to relate that definition to the subject at hand?
I’d say it’s something more than just rude and dickish behavior, given the social implications, but if he doesn’t want to call it sexual harassment, we can call it ‘‘sexual intimidation’’ or something. manson, you seem to think that sexual harassment outside the workplace should be some kind of criminal charge-worthy offense to merit concern. Let’s just call it a nice legal way of ensuring women continue to be treated like sexual objects without regard for their comfort or well-being.
The first thing I thought about when he posted that was my beleaguered colleagues at work who have to deal with so much devil’s advocate bullshit when they are trying to teach teens not to rape each other. I’m pretty sure the presenters bitched about him in the coffee room when it was over. (I am not claiming that would be professional of them, just likely.)
I’m going to agree to disagree with you since I don’t care that much about a TV show.
But, you said “what most people consider ‘sexual harassment’” without offering any cites to show what “most” people think.
Also, the definition of “hostile work environment” is right in the legal definition of “sexual harassment” so I would think it’s pretty important. Funny you don’t know that but still opine about it.
Lastly, comparing asking a girl to have sex with you to a bank robbery is ridiculous. Good luck with those comparisons in the future.
Have fun with this topic among yourselves.
Sorry, but I don’t play devils advocate. I state my views and ask other people what their views are. I don’t pretend to assume a position for the purposes of argument and I don’t play the “gotcha” game that so many others do.
It’s not my fault if the presenters bitched because they couldn’t answer a simple question. For that class, my first oh so many years ago, they continually called up the chain of command for an answer. It was quite funny to me that they couldn’t provide one. If you think it’s sexual harassment, then good for you. I don’t. Your opinions on the matter with nothing else to back it up don’t sway me, but I recognize and understand what you are saying. I just don’t agree.
…what is it you are disagreeing with? If you don’t care about a TV show why are you in a thread that is discussing a TV show?
Why on earth would I need to provide a cite for what people have written in this very thread? Are you incapable of scrolling up? Read the thread for goodness sakes. What a ridiculous request. You wanted to find out how people defined sexual harassment in this thread. You asked the question in this thread. You wanted to have a “proper discussion” in “this thread.” If you are only going to accept “cites” from outside of this thread, how the fuck are we supposed to have a “proper discussion?”
Which legal definition are you talking about? I live in New Zealand. Where do you live? I didn’t ask how “important” anything was. I asked you what the definition of one has to do with the other.
The only person in this thread concerned with the legal definition is you.
Strawman. I didn’t compare “asking a girl to have sex” with a “bank robbery.” I asked if "“if I don’t shoot you, will you give me all of your money?” qualified as a “one time question.” Its no wonder you didn’t understand anything during sexual harassment training. I’m specifically saying one thing and you are reading it as something else. Please stop doing that.
Well if this means the nitpicking over the definition of sexual harassment is over then we might be able to start having fun now.
Why is it funny that there are some grey areas when it comes to these issues that can’t easily be answered?
The problem is, you’re asking for a legal standard that doesn’t exist. There are no ‘‘sexual harassment’’ laws outside of the workplace that I am aware of. All you have is behavior that makes me and other women (and I’m sure some men) feel like shit. It’s fucked up and wrong no matter what you call it, but since it’s happening to us, I think it’s okay for us to decide what to call it.
Since what makes any given person feel anything in any given scenario is probably going to vary, we have to generalize based on what would make the average person feel uncomfortable or threatened. The law, if there was one, might phrase it, ‘‘any sexually unwanted behavior that would reasonably make a person feel…’’ That’s what we’re doing, to the best of our ability, as women who’ve experienced it. The behavior you’re describing would reasonably make a person feel uncomfortable or threatened, so there’s no good reason not for me to call it sexual harassment.
If sexual harassment were legally defined, how would you define it and why wouldn’t that instance qualify? Unless you’re about to argue that no aggressive sexual behavior outside of the workplace should be recognized as sexual harassment, I don’t really understand your argument. I am pretty baffled by this whole exchange, to be honest. You’re acting really combative and rude and I don’t think it’s warranted.
Missed edit window: I don’t think I’m being that mean. I’m certainly not trying to be.
I said I don’t care that much about a TV show. I care enough to talk about it on this message board though.
Because you said “most people”. Did you actually mean “Most people who commented in this thread”? If so, you should clarify what you are talking about.
Since the shows take place in the US, I am asking about the legal definition in the US. Which includes what “hostile workplace” means. Sorry if you don’t agree or if the law is different in New Zealand.
Because I’m not concerned with what people think, or feel, is sexual harassment. I’m concerned with what the law says about it.
It’s funny because they couldn’t come out and say “No, asking a woman one time if she will have sex with you is not sexual harassment in accordance with the law”
What benefit does it provide for you and other women to call it something that has a legal definition, when it does not actually fall under the legal definition?
Sure there is. It doesn’t rise to the definition of sexual harassment. It’s just a rude, dick guy asking you to have sex with him. I still can’t believe that if a strange guy came up to you, asked you to have sex with him, you said “No” and he just walked away that you would claim “I’ve just been sexually harassed!” That seems demeaning to those people who have been sexually harassed in accordance with the law.
I would define it how it is currently defined in EEOC law.
I’m pretty sure I didn’t say you were being mean. Neither am I, although you seem to think that.
…so are you going to talk about the TV show then?
I was responding directly to you. I quoted you. If you were keeping track of what you were saying the context should have been crystal clear.
Are you talking about the guidelines in the EEOC you cited earlier, or something else? What is it, do you think, a guideline is?
The law is just the law. In a thread about a TV show we don’t have to meet the legal definition of sexual harassment. Just like in a discussion on Bill Cosby we can say “he did it” without having to worry about the presumption of innocence. We all get that you are concerned about "what the law says about it. You’ve said it many many times, you don’t need to repeat yourself.
Ok. I think Friends was good the first 2 seasons and the last 2.
Really? This is what you are going to go with? LOL
Of course you can. If you want to take that route, then that’s fine. I disagree that Leonard was sexually harassed. Thankfully, since you don’t want to bring the law into it, my opinion is just as valid as yours. I guess we will agree to disagree.
…was that a yes or a no?
I’m glad you managed to share your opinion without denigrating or arguing with anyone who disagreed with you.
Pretty sure I didn’t denigrate anyone in this thread. If I did, please point it out and I will apologize.
No, you didn’t. I was questioning my own behavior.
Let’s try another hypothetical. Say you are a woman walking home from work at night and bunch of guys start following you and screaming obscenities about your various body parts and what they want to do to you.
Does this qualify, in your view, as something worse than ‘‘dickish behavior’’?
It’s not illegal, but I would certainly call it sexual harassment. The idea that sexual harassment can only occur in the workplace under a very narrow legal definition is a bit baffling to me. I honestly can’t remember ever encountering anyone who held that view.
I’m also kind of annoyed that you find it demeaning to anyone who was ‘‘truly sexually harassed.’’ The main reason sexual harassment (including your example) makes me feel like shit, personally, is because I was molested for years as a teen and when you’ve been treated like a sexual object for large parts of your life that shit, however innocuous it might seem to an outsider, starts to feel serious really fast. Since this is a relatively common experience for women (sexual assault, I mean) and even for men, I don’t think it can be argued that my aversion to inappropriate acts of sexual aggression is some kind of rare outlier. It’s consistent with what a lot of women have been through, and what they go through when they are sexually harrassed. Instances of sexual harassment don’t exist in a vacuum, they are an experiential pattern that often leads to sexual assault. I don’t think it’s really fair to divorce the behavior from the cultural context.
I’m really sorry that you don’t care how I feel about it, because people like me are the ones most affected by it.
Not to distract from the serious discussion going on here, but CMT is showing reruns of Scrubs and damn if The Todd is not a walking lawsuit every time he walks into a room.
I’m pretty sure Dr. Cox calling JD every woman’s name in the book (except for one, he calls Eliot “Barbie”) is also grounds for harassment.
How about verbal assault? Can I call it that?