# ...from the President of the United States: WE CANNOT LET THE CURE BE WORSE THAN THE PROBLEM ITSELF **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 23, 2020, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-the-president-of-the-united-states-we-cannot-let-the-cure-be-worse-than-the-problem-itself/850078 "2020-03-23T05:48:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-the-president-of-the-united-states-we-cannot-let-the-cure-be-worse-than-the-problem-itself/850078/281 "2020-03-28T03:05:19Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > Does it also seem sexist to you that you don’t have an uterus? No, it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![nesta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a4c791/32.png) [@nesta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nesta)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-the-president-of-the-united-states-we-cannot-let-the-cure-be-worse-than-the-problem-itself/850078/282 "2020-03-28T06:27:05Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > I asked for a procedure **equivalent to abortion** and you go off on stupid shit about fighting aging and other dumbass stuff. So if you were being serious and not flippant, you’re a moron. How is that for ad hominem? > > Again, seriously, giving birth is something people do all the damn time, it’s not a medical ailment that needs to be cured unless the situation carries unusual risks that warrant termination of the pregnancy. What procedure do people perform as an essential medical practice that’s equivalent to an abortion? > > I’m not a pro-lifer trying for a gotcha here. And if there is an argument that can make abortion equivalent to other accepted essential medical procedures, great, that’s an argument that can shut down those trying to inhibit a woman’s choice. I haven’t seen a serious argument, just people being cute about it. I assume because you’ve “got nothin’”, as you said. Which is a shame, I honestly hoped you had one. Will you accept broken bones as an example? Most fractures are not life threatening. If you don’t have medical treatment for a fracture you might lose the functionality of an arm, walk with a limp, or have pain for the rest of your life, but you’ll live. For most of human existence we just let the body repair itself as well as it could, and lived with the consequences. Now we’ll preform surgery and and install pins and such just to avoid mild discomfort. Would you argue that we should deem fractures that aren’t life threatening not medically essential? Carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth have physiological effects on the body. Many of the effects are minor, but some can be major, which can also be said for fractures. If there were a procedure for just avoiding breaking the bone in the first place, I think it would be deemed medically essential. Also, discussions like these often ignore that mental health is often as, if not more, important than the physical medical interventions. If abortion isn’t deemed medically essential, you are conceding that forcing women to give birth has a low enough bar for lasting effects as to be unfortunate, but not very important. Forcing a woman to bring a child into this world that she doesn’t want will have mental health effects that last the rest of her life. That seems to me to be an essential medical concern. ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-the-president-of-the-united-states-we-cannot-let-the-cure-be-worse-than-the-problem-itself/850078/283 "2020-03-28T16:41:46Z")
> [@Guest-starring\_Id](#): > > (wish I got back sooner so this wouldn’t look like a pile on, but he _was_ addressing me, anyway) It’s not too uncommon for life-theatening complications to occur during pregnancy, that yeah, might require an abortion. > [@Slash1972](#): > > Yes, it **might**. The bolded is supposed to say “will”. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2020, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-the-president-of-the-united-states-we-cannot-let-the-cure-be-worse-than-the-problem-itself/850078/284 "2020-04-10T21:40:30Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Do we? Do you have an example of an equivalent procedure done as a medical necessity? I don’t know of an example, I’m legitimately curious what you have in mind. > [@Atamasama](#): > > I asked for a procedure **equivalent to abortion** and you go off on stupid shit about fighting aging and other dumbass stuff. So if you were being serious and not flippant, you’re a moron. How is that for ad hominem? > > Again, seriously, giving birth is something people do all the damn time, it’s not a medical ailment that needs to be cured unless the situation carries unusual risks that warrant termination of the pregnancy. What procedure do people perform as an essential medical practice that’s equivalent to an abortion? > > I’m not a pro-lifer trying for a gotcha here. And if there is an argument that can make abortion equivalent to other accepted essential medical procedures, great, that’s an argument that can shut down those trying to inhibit a woman’s choice. I haven’t seen a serious argument, just people being cute about it. I assume because you’ve “got nothin’”, as you said. Which is a shame, I honestly hoped you had one. A woman is pregnant. She does not wish to be pregnant. Pregnancy carries with it several physiological changes she may not wish to endure. Pregnancy carries with it the consequence of 9 months and then 18+years of physical and financial support, plus a lifelong commitment to emotional support. And, due to laws, abortion has a short window during which it can be performed for non life-threatening reasons, somewhere between when the woman becomes aware she is pregnant (3 months?) and typically “viability” which is maybe 7 months (28 weeks), but sometimes 24 weeks, and even 22 weeks. Any delays in receiving the treatment can mean missing the window it is legal. I really don’t see how you can argue it isn’t essential for those wishing to have it. What would make a medical condition equivalent to you? Cancer has a growth that starts that you don’t want that can dramatically effect your health. Not equivalent? Okay, heart disease and type II diabetes are largely due to lifestyle (i.e. personal actions), but we still treat them. Not equivalent? What analogy would you accept? What are the constraints on the type of conditions that make it equivalent in your mind? We can’t give you an example unless you give us the box we have to stay in. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2020, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-the-president-of-the-united-states-we-cannot-let-the-cure-be-worse-than-the-problem-itself/850078/285 "2020-04-10T22:38:34Z")
How did this turn into an abortion thread? ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2020, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-the-president-of-the-united-states-we-cannot-let-the-cure-be-worse-than-the-problem-itself/850078/286 "2020-04-11T00:19:19Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > You’d rather that women die from problem pregnancies because abortions have been deemed non-essential? How about rape victims who got pregnant and can’t have abortions because it’s non-essential? > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > How did this turn into an abortion thread? Roe’s corollary to Godwin’s law? ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2020, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-the-president-of-the-united-states-we-cannot-let-the-cure-be-worse-than-the-problem-itself/850078/287 "2020-04-11T02:24:00Z")
If I may hijack the hijack … Nicolle Wallace on Trump, his medical experts, and “reopening the country” (not a quote since I don’t have a transcript, but I think I got it mostly right):Though Trump signaled today that he’s going to listen to their guidance when it comes to reopening the country, he stressed once again that he’d turn to [this] and he hopes for a swift end to the widespread ‘shelter in place’ orders that appear to be working.When she said [this] she tapped the side of her head — using her middle finger. I have no idea whether it was inadvertent, but it was certainly appropriate. She also said “Lies! Lies!” rather emphatically once after playing some of Trump’s comments, and on another occasion she referred to his bloviations as “bullshit” on the air (granted it’s cable, but still not something one often hears). Fortunately for her Trump never watches MSNBC, or she’d be having “visitors.” ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2020, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-the-president-of-the-united-states-we-cannot-let-the-cure-be-worse-than-the-problem-itself/850078/288 "2020-04-12T17:15:55Z")
[Fauci says the government is considering giving out COVID-19 ‘immunity cards’ as part of push to reopen the economy](https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-says-government-considering-giving-190200668.html). Government issued ‘immunity cards’. How long before that turns into “papers, please”? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2020, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-the-president-of-the-united-states-we-cannot-let-the-cure-be-worse-than-the-problem-itself/850078/289 "2020-04-12T17:21:47Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > [Fauci says the government is considering giving out COVID-19 ‘immunity cards’ as part of push to reopen the economy](https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-says-government-considering-giving-190200668.html). > > Government issued ‘immunity cards’. How long before that turns into “papers, please”? Can anyone say “counterfeits”? ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2020, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-the-president-of-the-united-states-we-cannot-let-the-cure-be-worse-than-the-problem-itself/850078/290 "2020-04-12T18:03:37Z")
Can anyone say badges? I want a kickass metal badge that I can clip into a wallet and flip out like an FBI badge. And when some dweeb with a clipboard asks to see it, I want to say: “Badches? We don’ need no steenkin’ badches!” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2020, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-the-president-of-the-united-states-we-cannot-let-the-cure-be-worse-than-the-problem-itself/850078/291 "2020-04-12T21:19:49Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > [Fauci says the government is considering giving out COVID-19 ‘immunity cards’ as part of push to reopen the economy](https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-says-government-considering-giving-190200668.html). > > Government issued ‘immunity cards’. How long before that turns into “papers, please”? Forever, because they don’t have a clue who’s immune anyway. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2020, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-the-president-of-the-united-states-we-cannot-let-the-cure-be-worse-than-the-problem-itself/850078/292 "2020-04-12T21:20:42Z")
MODERATOR NOTE This thread is not about abortion. Please get back on topic, thanks. RickJay Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2020, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-the-president-of-the-united-states-we-cannot-let-the-cure-be-worse-than-the-problem-itself/850078/293 "2020-04-12T23:21:36Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > [Fauci says the government is considering giving out COVID-19 ‘immunity cards’ as part of push to reopen the economy](https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-says-government-considering-giving-190200668.html). > > Government issued ‘immunity cards’. How long before that turns into “papers, please”? Not only is it a portal to a “papers, please” society, and not only would counterfeits arise (as **running coach** posted), but such cards would be utterly useless. A person with a legitimate card issued yesterday could have been in contact with an infected person five minutes after the card was issued. The card-holder, in all likelihood, will then be able to infect others. Cards are useless. We need tests, and lots of them. We need tests that give fairly quick results. Until there’s an effective vaccine that is given to virtually everyone, we need quick and sure tests at access points: buildings will need airlocks, and no one will go in or out who has not passed the test. The same should be true of public transportation, which will be logistically more challenging, but can be done. Cards are a ridiculous idea. My guess is Fauci mentioned it because it’s a pet idea of Jared or Hannity or some other dimwit who has Trump’s ear, and Fauci wants the idea to be properly assessed (and given the ridicule it deserves). ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-the-president-of-the-united-states-we-cannot-let-the-cure-be-worse-than-the-problem-itself/850078/294 "2020-04-13T02:36:37Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Not only is it a portal to a “papers, please” society, and not only would counterfeits arise (as **running coach** posted), but such cards would be utterly useless. A person with a legitimate card issued yesterday could have been in contact with an infected person five minutes after the card was issued. The card-holder, in all likelihood, will then be able to infect others. > > Cards are useless. We need tests, and lots of them. We need tests that give fairly quick results. Until there’s an effective vaccine that is given to virtually everyone, we need quick and sure tests at access points: buildings will need airlocks, and no one will go in or out who has not passed the test. The same should be true of public transportation, which will be logistically more challenging, but can be done. > > Cards are a ridiculous idea. My guess is Fauci mentioned it because it’s a pet idea of Jared or Hannity or some other dimwit who has Trump’s ear, and Fauci wants the idea to be properly assessed (and given the ridicule it deserves). There are a lot of problems with the idea, but they aren’t talking about giving them to people that test negative, they are talking about giving them to people that test positive for antibodies- meaning that they’ve had it -symptomatically or without symptoms- and are now immune. I think the biggest problem with that idea is that, unless there is a huge pool of people with mild or no symptoms that have “recovered” - is that it still is a really small group of people and it probably won’t change anything one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-the-president-of-the-united-states-we-cannot-let-the-cure-be-worse-than-the-problem-itself/850078/295 "2020-04-13T03:26:14Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > There are a lot of problems with the idea, but they aren’t talking about giving them to people that test negative, they are talking about giving them to people that test positive for antibodies- meaning that they’ve had it -symptomatically or without symptoms- and are now immune. > I think the biggest problem with that idea is that, unless there is a huge pool of people with mild or no symptoms that have “recovered” - is that it still is a really small group of people and it probably won’t change anything one way or the other. I think the biggest problem with that is the huge mass of people who think it is nothing, who would deliberately do everything they could to expose their family to get it over with and get on with life. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-the-president-of-the-united-states-we-cannot-let-the-cure-be-worse-than-the-problem-itself/850078/296 "2020-04-13T15:10:41Z")
I think the biggest problem is that we don’t know yet what it means if an asymptomatic person tests positive for antibodies, other than that it means they’ve been exposed. We don’t know yet whether you can catch it again despite having antibodies. We don’t know yet whether you can infect other people despite having antibodies. That doesn’t make an antibody test worthless, of course; for one thing, without such testing we can’t answer those questions. But it does mean that having such a certificate wouldn’t mean, at this point, either that the person can’t get seriously sick from the virus, or that they can’t infect anybody else. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-the-president-of-the-united-states-we-cannot-let-the-cure-be-worse-than-the-problem-itself/850078/297 "2020-04-13T15:22:23Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > There are a lot of problems with the idea, but they aren’t talking about giving them to people that test negative, they are talking about giving them to people that test positive for antibodies- meaning that they’ve had it -symptomatically or without symptoms- and are now immune. All true but, not knowing much about viruses in general or Coronaviruses in particular, a person with the antibodies will fight off subsequent infections, but is there a period between the infection and where the immune system turns the tide when a person can infect others? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-the-president-of-the-united-states-we-cannot-let-the-cure-be-worse-than-the-problem-itself/850078/298 "2020-04-13T15:35:00Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I think the biggest problem is that we don’t know yet what it means if an asymptomatic person tests positive for antibodies, other than that it means they’ve been exposed. We don’t know yet whether you can catch it again despite having antibodies. We don’t know yet whether you can infect other people despite having antibodies. There appears to be anecdotal evidence that the presence of antibodies may make the 2nd bout much less of a problem, but clearly nobody knows for sure yet. But other than that, yes, you can infect other people despite having antibodies - by not washing your hands and not being generally careful in other ways, i.e. contact transmission. It not as much a risk as a person who is sick shedding virus, but it’s one more thing I fear (on top of a lot of other things), it’s people who consider themselves “safe” because they have already had it and proceed to engage in behaviors that aid in secondary or tertiary transmission rather than direct transmission. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2020, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-the-president-of-the-united-states-we-cannot-let-the-cure-be-worse-than-the-problem-itself/850078/299 "2020-04-14T00:00:48Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I think the biggest problem is that we don’t know yet what it means if an asymptomatic person tests positive for antibodies, other than that it means they’ve been exposed. We don’t know yet whether you can catch it again despite having antibodies. We don’t know yet whether you can infect other people despite having antibodies. > > That doesn’t make an antibody test worthless, of course; for one thing, without such testing we can’t answer those questions. But it does mean that having such a certificate wouldn’t mean, at this point, either that the person can’t get seriously sick from the virus, or that they can’t infect anybody else. ^ This. Making a “card,” again, useless. (Unless as a bookmark, perhaps.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-the-president-of-the-united-states-we-cannot-let-the-cure-be-worse-than-the-problem-itself/850078.md?page=14)