# "Frontline"—We've Elected Ned Flanders! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2004, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840 "2004-04-30T13:00:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/81 "2004-05-03T21:37:56Z")
I’m an atheist, but I voted for Bush. In other words, I’m conflicted. In general, I try to look for the good side of people. I admire Bush’s honesty in owning up to his drinking problem (although it ain’t like politicians in the information age got much choice), and the discipline it took to lick it. On the other hand, he sometimes gives me a vibe like a rich, southern version of Eddie Haskell. (Can you picture Ned Flanders calling someone a “major league asshole?\*” Even if no one were listening? _Nokely dokely._) My understanding was that the Karla Faye Tucker thing was a he said/she said situation: a journalist _claimed_ Bush made the cruel, venal comments about executing Tucker, but Bush (or spokespeople thereof) disputed this. **Loopydude** refers to a clip, but I’ve never heard one. (Has anyone else?) It would admittedly lower my opinion of Bush to learn that he had made such comments. - And that one _is_ on tape. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/82 "2004-05-03T22:00:03Z")
Well, Flanders _did_ try to baptize someone else’s kids. 😮 ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/83 "2004-05-04T02:55:31Z")
I couldn’t find a clip, but dug up this [cite](http://www.nationalreview.com/daily/nr080999.html). It’s from National Review, and the reporter is Tucker Carlson. If they’re part of the liberal media, I’m the Pope. I therefore find it hard to refute Carlson’s claim that Bush said this particularly nasty, un-Christian thing about a human being he was about to authorize the execution of. _Yikes!_ But the comments afterward seem to reflect pretty much the same remorse I’ve often had after popping off. Does this lower my opinion of the president? Not really – I don’t think it makes him corrupt, or amoral (any more than getting a blowjob did Clinton). And I already knew he was sometimes given to speaking with his mind disengaged. > [@F. U. Shakespeare](#): > > (snip) > > My understanding was that the Karla Faye Tucker thing was a he said/she said situation: a journalist _claimed_ Bush made the cruel, venal comments about executing Tucker, but Bush (or spokespeople thereof) disputed this. **Loopydude** refers to a clip, but I’ve never heard one. (Has anyone else?) It would admittedly lower my opinion of Bush to learn that he had made such comments. > > - And that one _is_ on tape. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/84 "2004-05-04T02:57:46Z")
> [@F. U. Shakespeare](#): > > I couldn’t find a clip, but dug up this [cite](http://www.nationalreview.com/daily/nr080999.html). > > It’s from National Review, and the reporter is Tucker Carlson. If they’re part of the liberal media, I’m the Pope. I therefore find it hard to refute Carlson’s claim that Bush said this particularly nasty, un-Christian thing about a human being he was about to authorize the execution of. _Yikes!_ But the comments afterward seem to reflect pretty much the same remorse I’ve often had after popping off. > > Does this lower my opinion of the president? Not really – I don’t think it makes him corrupt, or amoral (any more than getting a blowjob did Clinton). And I already knew he was sometimes given to speaking with his mind disengaged. It could be that I’ve chewed too many of those leaves, but I believe I remember seeing at least a picture of w with a shit eating grin and a shit eating quote attached. I might even have seen the tv clip, but you know how slipper neurotransmitters can be… ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/85 "2004-05-04T03:08:31Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > It could be that I’ve chewed too many of those leaves, but I believe I remember seeing at least a picture of w with a shit eating grin and a shit eating quote attached. I might even have seen the tv clip, but you know how slipper neurotransmitters can be… The Daily Show did a story of one of Kerry’s gaffes with a hot mic, and then theorized on what would happen if Bush did so… then played a clip of him doing so (thus creating a comedic effect). I believe this is what you are referring to. I forgot the date of the show, but I believe it was in March 2004. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/86 "2004-05-04T03:11:16Z")
I should note - the clips above. Kerry’s slip was talking with union workers (something to the effect of, “I hate that asshole too”), I believe. Bush’s was giving a speech in front of a large crowd (something to the effect of, “that asshole?”) ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/87 "2004-05-04T03:52:39Z")
For the record, Karla Faye Tucker was convicted of an axe-murder, which she admitted to doing quite enthusiastically. Apparently, she did experience a true & deep conversion while in prison. However, that in no way should mitigate her sentence. She was convicted of willful murder, her conversion did not resurrect her victim. She is my sister in Christ & is probably now singing with the angels but if anyone deserved execution, it was her. And I did lots of eye-rolling when Falwell & Robertson (two men I usually agree with on basic issues if not on how they express them) appealled for clemency. Mrs. Falwell was right. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/88 "2004-05-04T04:04:10Z")
I think the issue wasn’t so much whether Ms. Tucker did or did not have it coming, it’s that a public official would go on the record mocking her by quoting her please, in a sarcastically whimpering voice “_please, don’t kill me_”. Sends chills down yer’ spine, don’t it pastah? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/89 "2004-05-04T04:13:11Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > She was convicted of willful murder, her conversion did not resurrect her victim. She is my sister in Christ & is probably now singing with the angels This is the kind of thing that just makes me shake my head sadly and hold back tears for humanity. Even when I was a devout Christian, I thought this kind of thinking was utterly stupid to me. Acts mean nothing and faith means everything? I held (and hold) the exact opposite viewpoint - acts mean everything and faith means nothing. Back then (and now) I simply refuse to believe in a deity who is enough of a pompous asshole to not care if you willfully slaughtered a few people as long as you knelt before him unconditionally. I refuse to believe that a god could be that vain and stupid. I would think that he would rather accept someone who lived an outstandingly good life but was Buddhist, rather than the scum of the earth just because they are Christian. Can Satan be more just than Jesus? Thanks, I’d rather go to hell, but I’ll spit on god’s feet if I see him and he is this way. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/90 "2004-05-04T04:30:45Z")
That’s “pleas” dammit, not “please”. As in plural of “plea”. Gah, I say, gah. ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/91 "2004-05-04T10:48:13Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Well, the creep factor is based on things he’s actually done. Telling the world he confers with his Father-with-a-capital-“F” rather than his Earthly father on matters of state, for starters. Yes, people turn to religion for guidance all kinds of things. I just think that sharing that information with the nation is creepy, considering we don’t all believe he’s actually TALKING to anyone. I’m creeped out that he appointed Ashcroft into such a powerful position. I’m doubly creeped out that he has so little respect for education and intelligence (but big respect for “Test Scores”). All these things add up. Didn’t GWB say: “I believe that God wants me to be president.”? And speaking of this God - to the best of my knowledge, no one in history has ever produced any verifiable evidence of having been visited by or spoken to by this God. For some odd reason, like ghosts, people who claim to get messages from their God never seem to be able to capture them on tape or video! Instead, they see visions, have dreams or hear things. But only THEY can hear or see God speaking to them. I don’t know about you but this sounds to me like the descriptions you hear for people under the influence of some good drugs or who are certifiably insane. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/92 "2004-05-04T12:17:17Z")
> [@iamme99](#): > > Didn’t GWB say: “I believe that God wants me to be president.”? > > And speaking of this God - to the best of my knowledge, no one in history has ever produced any verifiable evidence of having been visited by or spoken to by this God. For some odd reason, like ghosts, people who claim to get messages from their God never seem to be able to capture them on tape or video! Instead, they see visions, have dreams or hear things. But only THEY can hear or see God speaking to them. I don’t know about you but this sounds to me like the descriptions you hear for people under the influence of some good drugs or who are certifiably insane. Preach it, Brutha! Now, I’m all for some quiet introspection before deciding to wage war on a country the size of Texas. In fact, I think serious thought should be the precursor to lots of stuff a president does. But to blatantly bypass serious discussions with the experts _he_ appointed, and tell the American people that he was going to the guy whose opinion _really_ counts is a slap in the face to every person in this country and to anyone who voted for him. The nerve… ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/93 "2004-05-04T12:51:05Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Karla Faye Tucker was convicted of an axe-murder, which she admitted to doing quite enthusiastically . . . She is my sister in Christ & is probably now singing with the angels . . . Goodness gracious! Most nightclubs in New York have a better door policy than heaven does! ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/94 "2004-05-04T14:15:26Z")
(St. Peter) “You’re in. You’re in. Step aside. That halo is tragic. You’re in. Beat it. Those are the shabbiest wings I’ve ever seen. You’re in.” ---
**Author:** ![initech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/439d5e/32.png) [@initech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/initech)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/95 "2004-05-04T15:08:36Z")
When GW said he consulted with God on the matter of war with Iraq, he was dodging a question. He had been asked if he consulted his father, former President George H.W. Bush, the only person on the planet with presidential experience in this area. He hadn’t. So, he invoked God, his heavenly father, as his consultant. To me, it seemed cynical and weak, but it successfully avoided the matter. He appeased his supporters and apparently distracted his opponents. It is far more alarming to me that this president would fail to seek his father’s advice, given the gravity of the situation and his father’s status as the _only human being on earth_ to have walked in those shoes. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/96 "2004-05-04T15:24:18Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Even when I was a devout Christian, I thought this kind of thinking was utterly stupid to me. Acts mean nothing and faith means everything? I held (and hold) the exact opposite viewpoint - acts mean everything and faith means nothing. Back then (and now) I simply refuse to believe in a deity who is enough of a pompous asshole to not care if you willfully slaughtered a few people as long as you knelt before him unconditionally. If that was your belief, I don’t think it’s fair to say that you were a Christian. At least, your understanding of Christianity was and is flawed—not that that’s surprising; I’m not sure I really understand it myself, and it’s often not explained very well, or misrepresented. Central to Christianity is the idea that we’re all sinners in need of God’s grace (we’re all potential Karla Faye Tuckers, given enough provocation and opportunity), and that God through Christ offers atonement and reconciliation. This deserves fuller elaboration, but even if I were competent to do so, it would constitute a hijack of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/97 "2004-05-04T15:36:22Z")
> [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > If that was your belief, I don’t think it’s fair to say that you were a Christian. At least, your understanding of Christianity was and is flawed—not that that’s surprising; I’m not sure I really understand it myself, and it’s often not explained very well, or misrepresented. Central to Christianity is the idea that we’re all sinners in need of God’s grace (we’re all potential Karla Faye Tuckers, given enough provocation and opportunity), and that God through Christ offers atonement and reconciliation. This deserves fuller elaboration, but even if I were competent to do so, it would constitute a hijack of the thread. Eh, hijacking never stopped me before. In any event, this is why I am no longer a Christian. I began to realize that it did not jive with how I knew god. It is fair to say that, at best, I was a wildly unconventional Christian that any decent church would have thrown out the door. I fully understood and understand that my position in Christianity was against the norm, but hey, at its roots, this is about loving Jesus. I think my viewpoint at the time was something along the lines of - live a good life in view of god, truthfully repent your sins, and that’s that. I never had a belief in life without sin, but I also never bought the whole deathbed repentance bit. Eventually realizing that you are an asshole is no excuse for acting like an asshole. God may forgive you for your sins, but that doesn’t mean they don’t count. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/98 "2004-05-04T16:59:59Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Eh, hijacking never stopped me before. > > In any event, this is why I am no longer a Christian. I began to realize that it did not jive with how I knew god. It is fair to say that, at best, I was a wildly unconventional Christian that any decent church would have thrown out the door. I fully understood and understand that my position in Christianity was against the norm, but hey, at its roots, this is about loving Jesus. > > I think my viewpoint at the time was something along the lines of - live a good life in view of god, truthfully repent your sins, and that’s that. I never had a belief in life without sin, but I also never bought the whole deathbed repentance bit. Eventually realizing that you are an asshole is no excuse for acting like an asshole. God may forgive you for your sins, but that doesn’t mean they don’t count. My ex was a deathbed repenter. Jesus may love him, but he abandoned four children and three women. He was guilty of sloth, coveting the neighbors, vanity, violence, and a host of other sins. If Jesus and god let him off the hook, anyone can do anything without fear of punishment. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/99 "2004-05-04T17:21:34Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > My ex was a deathbed repenter. Jesus may love him, but he abandoned four children and three women. He was guilty of sloth, coveting the neighbors, vanity, violence, and a host of other sins. If Jesus and god let him off the hook, anyone can do anything without fear of punishment. Gee, I can believe that God/Jesus can let him be reconciled to Them w/o letting him off the hook! I firmly believe in a Purgatorial experience in which we all are confronted by God/Jesus in Their Perfect Love & Justice, and it will not be a painless experience for anyone- tho trust & obedience to Them in this life go a long way in minimizing the painfulness of that Afterlife confrontation. Btw, I will say of Karla Faye’s behalf, she did have several years of consistent Christian living in prison in which she did counseling ministry with other female inmates, so that gotta count for something, tho like I said, it should not have spared her execution & I’m sure her meeting her victim(s?) in Heaven was not without some discomfort on her part. Also, remember that to the extent God lets anyone off the hook, it’s because God in Jesus put Himself on the hook. Tho that is also greatly disparaged in several threads (“He only gave up a weekend!”) ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/100 "2004-05-04T18:12:36Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > My ex was a deathbed repenter. Jesus may love him, but he abandoned four children and three women. He was guilty of sloth, coveting the neighbors, vanity, violence, and a host of other sins. If Jesus and god let him off the hook, anyone can do anything without fear of punishment. Didn’t Tim McVeign (Oklahoma City bombing) also repented just before he was executed by the state? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840.md?page=6)