# "Frontline"—We've Elected Ned Flanders! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2004, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840 "2004-04-30T13:00:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/101 "2004-05-04T18:35:50Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Didn’t Tim McVeign (Oklahoma City bombing) also repented just before he was executed by the state? Iffy- he did talk with a priest before he died. The priest gave a gracious non-detailed account of the meeting. Tim had the poem Invictus (“Master of my fate, Captain of my soul”) read as his final statement, not exactly a testimony of repentance or faith. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/102 "2004-05-04T18:45:40Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Btw, I will say of Karla Faye’s behalf, she did have several years of consistent Christian living in prison in which she did counseling ministry with other female inmates, so that gotta count for something, tho like I said, it should not have spared her execution & I’m sure her meeting her victim(s?) in Heaven was not without some discomfort on her part. After murdering two people with a pick-ax? All her “consistent Christian living in prison” don’t count for dirt, as far as I’m concerned. And how do you know her victims were Christians, and up-to-date on their Hail Marys? Maybe Karla Faye went to heaven and her victims are frying in hell. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/103 "2004-05-04T19:17:12Z")
Christianity says that faith, not works, is the way to salvation. (Mind you, this isn’t just a “Sowwy” kind of faith - it’s a good deal deeper kind of repentance). Thus, it is possible that the killer was saved, but Bush was doing his duty as a secular leader to condemn her to death for her works. This shows, btw, how well we can trust Bush’s actions (vs. his thought process, which none of us are privvy to) to sepearate his religious beliefs from his duty as a leader. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/104 "2004-05-04T19:35:13Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Didn’t Tim McVeign (Oklahoma City bombing) also repented just before he was executed by the state? I don’t think so. He was going on about “too bad about the kids, but I had a job to do” or somesuch. It’s just such bad form… ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/105 "2004-05-04T19:39:39Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Christianity says that faith, not works, is the way to salvation. (Mind you, this isn’t just a “Sowwy” kind of faith - it’s a good deal deeper kind of repentance). Thus, it is possible that the killer was saved, but Bush was doing his duty as a secular leader to condemn her to death for her works. > > This shows, btw, how well we can trust Bush’s actions (vs. his thought process, which none of us are privvy to) to sepearate his religious beliefs from his duty as a leader. Well, what about the vouchers? That’s certainly not separation of church and state. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/106 "2004-05-04T21:03:12Z")
“Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord, I will repay” In the _Gospel According to **The Elucidator** _ (you get a promotion when you start talking theology) what this breaks down to is: “Justice, my ass! You are puny humans, you got no idea what you’re messing with, 'cause you ain’t me. You just work on mercy, I’ll take care of justice.” _Here endeth the lesson. But not the preaching._ ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/107 "2004-05-05T02:49:24Z")
by **athelas** > [@](#): > > This shows, btw, how well we can trust Bush’s actions (vs. his thought process, which none of us are privvy to) to sepearate his religious beliefs from his duty as a leader. Nah. I think it shows the same level of inconsistency that riddles most of Bible Belt Christianology. “Love thine enemies”, “Turn the other cheek”, “Thou shalt not judge lest you be judge”, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”… there’s a plethora of teachings that people like Bush often relegate to the back seat while letting the “vengeance is mine” type of stuff ride shotgun. Which is odd because it seems a lot of what is attributed directly to Jesus is the least emphasized by these people. You’ll be hard pressed to find a Bush-like Christian who doesn’t favor Old Testament style justice. “An eye for an eye” is probably the primary driving force behind capital punishment. And if you feel Bush does such a good job of separating religious convictions from from his work, what do you make of his attempts to limit abortion? Or outlaw same-sex marriages? ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/108 "2004-05-05T03:11:22Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > > [@athelas](#): > > > > This shows, btw, how well we can trust Bush’s actions (vs. his thought process, which none of us are privvy to) to sepearate his religious beliefs from his duty as a leader. > > Nah. I think it shows the same level of inconsistency that riddles most of Bible Belt Christianology. “Love thine enemies”, “Turn the other cheek”, “Thou shalt not judge lest you be judge”, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”… there’s a plethora of teachings that people like Bush often relegate to the back seat while letting the “vengeance is mine” type of stuff ride shotgun. Which is odd because it seems a lot of what is attributed directly to Jesus is the least emphasized by these people. You’ll be hard pressed to find a Bush-like Christian who doesn’t favor Old Testament style justice. “An eye for an eye” is probably the primary driving force behind capital punishment. > > And if you feel Bush does such a good job of separating religious convictions from from his work, what do you make of his attempts to limit abortion? Or outlaw same-sex marriages? Good observations! Just as people only focus on their pet issues in elections, we also live in the age of “roll-your-own” theology. Choose the parts of your theology that you want to follow and ignore the rest! For instance, seems I recall that the Pope says the Catholic God is against abortion and birth control. Yet a significant number of Catholics seem to ignore these parts of their chosen religion, because they either don’t like them or they don’t fit with their lifestyle. Bush, sadly, is no different than many other professed religious people. He’ll use religion when it suits his purposes but ignore the central teachings of his religion when it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/109 "2004-05-05T04:13:01Z")
Shhh **iamme99**! Don’t mention the elephant in the room (conservative catholics who favor the death penalty). ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/110 "2004-05-05T12:47:32Z")
It just goes on and on. Letting the bible guide a secular society is about as anti-American as it gets. Bush’s outright dissing of “intellectuals” shows that he has no interest in delving deeper into issues he finds wrong, icky, or against biblical teachings (well, the ones _he_ likes, anyway). He makes no effort to represent people who hold differing opinions. He never has an intelligent response to the questions posed to him. The man is about as deep as a thimble. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/111 "2004-05-05T13:18:17Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Bush’s outright dissing of “intellectuals” shows that he has no interest in delving deeper into issues he finds wrong, icky, or against biblical teachings (well, the ones _he_ likes, anyway). He makes no effort to represent people who hold differing opinions. He never has an intelligent response to the questions posed to him. The man is about as deep as a thimble. Which far from being anti-American, makes Dubya the perfect president to represent the mass of cud-chewers in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/112 "2004-05-05T13:24:10Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Which far from being anti-American, makes Dubya the perfect president to represent the mass of cud-chewers in this country. —_Hey!_ Cud is low in cholesterol, and is allowable on Atkins! ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/113 "2004-05-05T13:29:31Z")
Canada looks better and better all the time. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/114 "2004-05-05T13:58:10Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Well, what about the vouchers? That’s certainly not separation of church and state. Under an ideal voucher plan, parents could use them to send their children to any sort of school- a quality public school, a secular private school, a religious private school, or materials for homeschooling. Has nothing to do with separation of church & state. RE Canada- I’m sure some of us will be happy to donate towards your plane ticket. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/115 "2004-05-05T14:08:58Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Canada looks better and better all the time. (hijack)Yeah, and good luck moving there, ya know. I have a degree from a Canadian university, was resident there for quite some time, have job experience in what one could reasonably consider an undermanned field in Canada, and my attempts to move there have been laughed off. Face it: for the vast majority of us USians, we’re stuck here. Moral: we’ve got to change this country from the inside. (/hijack) ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/116 "2004-05-05T14:40:36Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Under an ideal voucher plan, parents could use them to send their children to any sort of school- a quality public school, a secular private school, a religious private school, or materials for homeschooling. Has nothing to do with separation of church & state. > RE Canada- I’m sure some of us will be happy to donate towards your plane ticket. 😉 _Ideally_, our government would not fund religious schooling. _Ideally_, if the government wants to fund education, per se, a person could send his or her kids to a high quality private school and fund their children’s religious training out of his or her own pocket. _Ideally_, our president would have a grasp of that concept before running for office in a secular nation. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/117 "2004-05-05T16:35:44Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Which far from being anti-American, makes Dubya the perfect president to represent the mass of cud-chewers in this country. Yep. Sadly, anti-itellectualism is far from anti-American. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/118 "2004-05-05T16:40:28Z")
> [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > Yep. Sadly, anti-itellectualism is far from anti-American. Actually, what I said is > [@](#): > > Letting the bible guide a secular society is about as anti-American as it gets. I stand by it. ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/119 "2004-05-05T21:08:48Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Under an ideal voucher plan, parents could use them to send their children to any sort of school- a quality public school, a secular private school, a religious private school, or materials for homeschooling. Has nothing to do with separation of church & state. [QUOTE] That is not correct. By giving public money to religious schools, you are funding and supporting the teaching of some religion. Church and state would not be separate in this case. If you believe that religion is an important part of a child’s daily education, then pay for that education yourself. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840/120 "2004-05-05T23:01:44Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > (hijack)Yeah, and good luck moving there, ya know. I have a degree from a Canadian university, was resident there for quite some time, have job experience in what one could reasonably consider an undermanned field in Canada, and my attempts to move there have been laughed off. > > Face it: for the vast majority of us USians, we’re stuck here. Moral: we’ve got to change this country from the inside. (/hijack) O maann. This is serious bad news–I was counting on Vancouver. Why won’t they let us in" They’ve got lots of room… (Few people know exactly where they went wrong in life, but I know that turning down that tenure line job at York University was one of my (several) wrong choices) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frontline-weve-elected-ned-flanders/242840.md?page=7)