Have you visited the PBS discussion site http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/talk/ about Bush: The Jesus factor? I read through many interesting responses. Some posters liked that Bush embraces religion and incorporates it in to his presidency. Others feel that though Bush’s faith is commendable, his actions as president don’t seem very Christian-like (love your neighbor). A third group emphasizes that Bush needs to be a secular leader, regardless of his religious beliefs. I fall in to that third category.
Is it wrong to elect a self-proclaimed religious fanatic? That wouldn’t be my first choice. I do not like many of Bush’s policies, such as invading Iraq, supporting faith-based initiatives and providing massive tax-cuts while running up the deficit. I could care less whether bush is born-again. I became concerned when he helped implement policies that favor one specific religious group or social class.
I just cannot buy the argument: “God told me to do it”. What ever happened to taking personal responsibility?
Some people ask for reasons why religious fundamentalism and US goverment policy are incompatible.
First, a few definitions. Evangelical fundamentalism is based on faith in certain premises. Not that faith is a bad thing per se, but these premises in other contexts are indefensible: that the Bible is literally true, every word; that only Jesus Christ offers eternal salvation; and, most ominously, that those who reject these premises will be forever damned. Conveniently, there is no way to formally prove or disprove any of these premises with 100% certainty, but the fundie holds this as evidence to support his reliance on faith rather than reason or agnosticism.
Now the reasons.
Logical Fallacy. Faith in Jesus and salvation is one thing. To insist that one posseses the only truth is another. This is not consistent with principles of democracy, where citizens approach one another with respect for differing opinions and debate with the goal of reaching consensus.
There is no debate. No compromise. The fundamentalist will not entertain opposing views, and is incapable of empathising with those of different viewpoints. Furthermore, there is little tolerance of drastically different opinions, which are instead met with hostility and derision. New ideas and concepts are feared and rejected.
Dogmatism. Any view which is not entirely consistent with his own is an opposing view. There are no grey areas, either you are saved or not. You either accept Jesus as your personal savior or you don’t.
There are few checks and balances. Most dangerously, the followers of fundamentalist evangelicals are particularly susceptible to fraudulent leaders, who can disguise corruption and malpractice behind jargon and dogma. Criticism of the leadership is equated with accuastion against his faith, and rejected as a personal attack rather than evaluated as potentially valid scrutiny.
The men who founded our country and framed the US Constitution were religious men, and they had firm beliefs. But their beliefs were consistent with the ideas of open debate, compromise, and commonwealth. They felt that God empowered every person at birth – regardless of social status, opinion, belief, or intelligence – with rights and dignities. Fundamentalists behave as if those who hold other beliefs and opinions have fewer rights and lesser dignity.
Simply put, it’s sociological narcissism, and it’s inconsistent with the fundamental principles of democracy.
I think the very basic reason a president should leave his religion aside is the fact that not all americans follow the same creed or beliefs. He represents the people and shouldn’t weigh more heavily onto the Fundamentalist Christians.
You keep missing the point. This means that in your evaluation, he is a religious fanatic. This does not make him a self-professed religious fanatic, as you claimed.
Yes, it is a huge leap to make that claim. Someone may look forward to the rapture, but this does not mean that they would welcome any means of bringing in on, no matter how severe.
Clear yet? If not, let me ask you this…
A great many SDMBers would welcome the legalization of gay marriages. Should they welcome the extermination of all gay marriage opponents, as a means of accomplishing this goal? Choose your answer carefully…
A better analogy: many Christians look forward to going to Heaven, but they don’t therefore try to hasten their own death.
Would it also be fair to say that he should leave his conservatism aside, since not all Americans follow the same political beliefs or belong to the same political party?
To some extent, I would answer yes (or at least, “I wish!”) to both. But it’s unreasonable to expect a president not to be influenced by his own personal beliefs (whether they be religious, political, philosophical, or whatever) unless 100% of Americans, or even a majority, share those beliefs.
Strictly speaking, no, since the Rapture has no Biblical support, and is a modern invention, so I can imagine plenty of Christians either not believing in it or ignoring the possibility entirely.
Yeah, I know it well. I got it everytime I heard Clinton say “I feel your pain”.
Keep in mind that what creeps out one person doesn’t creep out another. Neither your feeling about Bush nor my feeling about Clinton can be the rational basis for a debate.
We’re not close to being blown up, we’re there. You should be far more afraid of people who take 5 year old children and teach them 2 things, to memorize the Quran, and to WISH YOU DEAD. At the age of 11 these finely tuned hate mongers are given terrorist training. They are trained on how to fire an AK-47 and make explosives. The President only asks that 3rd graders get at least 40% on a couple of tests.
There are no stable democratic governments in the Mid East with the possible exception of Turkey. Iran is dominated by fanatic religious leaders and has an active nuclear program. The weapons inspectors in Iraq caught Saddam’s regime with mobile calutrons 10 years AFTER admitting they had given up using them to enrich uranium. Libya announced they were giving up their nuclear program. Pakistan’s chief nuclear scientist was caught distributing nuclear secrets around the region.
As bad as 9/11 was, it could have been a lot worse. They failed to destroy the political infrastructure in the Capital, and they didn’t have any nukes yet. It’s just a matter of time before they do.
If you were born with a vagina in Saudi Arabia then you have to be escorted everywhere by a man while wearing a body length sack. Honor killings are a way of life if you disgrace your family by having sex out of wedlock. You do not see gay-pride parades in Muslim countries.
I’m not sure what your complaint is? The President of the United States professes a belief in God while occasionally going to church and this frightens you? At the most he has 4 more years to torment you.
Wait a minute, okay? People like that are in the minority. Only a few parents teach their children to hate and kill.
Believe it or not, the vast majority of Islamic parents love their kids, and want to see them grow up to be successful, happy adults.
<snip>
What “fightens” me is that our president appears to want us to have someting in common with those Muslim countries.
It’s not about his religious faith. Frankly, I don’t give a rat’s ass if the man handles snakes and speaks in tongues in the Oval Office. What I care about is his not-so-subtle attempts at shaping pulbic policy to his religious views. Restricting freedom because of “morals.” Keeping people in their “place.” Forcing others to conform to their beliefs. . . . the very things we decried about the Taliban.
And, lo, it came to pass that the adherents of the Cult of Yahweh came to quarreling, each against the other, and there was neither restraint nor mercy in them…
I believe the pernicious effects of having a fundamentalist president are well conveyed by considering the title of the favored hymn “Our God is a Warrior God”.
We need a whole lot less of Jesus, and a lot more rock 'n roll.
(And I mean my cousin no disrespect…at a party, he’s the shizzy, what with having the long shiksa hookup, and all.)
** I haven’t seen anything over-the-top that isn’t consistent with both his views and the general populace. I would not be considered religious by anyone’s standard so I don’t say this with any religious conviction in mind. I would describe myself as more of a Libertarian than Republican but that doesn’t mean I don’t want my leaders to forego any form of moral discipline. If I think he is going to step over the line I will be the first person in line to rain on his parade.
No, Ned’s too nice a guy, I’m afraid. Very few people get to see it, but there is some chilling footage of George W. Bush publically mocking Karla Faye Tucker, who begged for clemency after becoming a born-again Christian.
I could see a public official in a pro-death state solemnly proclaiming that her personal revelation of God does not change her culpability, etc., and hence her execution should proceed. But Bush’s tone was anything but solemn. He derided her with an insulting impersonation of her pleading statements. I felt this behavior highly unbecoming of a public official, pro-death or no. But worse than unseemly, this clip was frightening. It was the first time I was forced to consider that not only was W. not very bright, he might be a tad sociopathic.
Dumb sociopaths are the worst. Call Ned what you will, he was no idiot sociopath. I’d gladly put Ned in the White House now over Bush. Sure we’d still have anti-abortion and anti-gay issues, but would we have Mr. Flanders inviting the terrorists to “Bring it on!”?
Well, why the hell wouldn’t this bother me? I don’t believe he’s talking to anyone, so he’s not representing me and millions of other people (including many of the faithful). He has taken faith too far, in my opinion. This kind of behavior, by the most powerful man in the world, leads me to think he’s a sandwich short of a picnic. And I’m dead serious here. Even if he did truly believe it (and he just might) you don’t run a democracy effectively by telling people you’re using witchcraft to help you govern. I’m glad my stance is creepy to you. I like to know where my enemies stand.