dh, I think that might have been based (very loosely) on the “pole shift” phenomenon. Which involves magnetic poles, rather than an actual movement of the earth.
But then, I assumed the post about the ice caps was a joke.
-andros-
Arnold and Mjollnir, the first place I look is http://www.powells.com/ . In future, I’ll have to try rarebooks.org. Thanks for the pointer.
Bob the Random Expert
“If we don’t have the answer, we’ll make one up.”
The “flash frozen” wooly mammoths used to stump me too. I am a fundamentalist Christian ducking head. In our church we had a really good program on creation vs. evolution and the flood.
One of the things that most people miss in reading the Biblical account of the flood is that in addition to rain, waters came forth from “the deep”. Apparently, water came from beneath the ground and broke through the earth’s crust.
In Dr. Brown’s “Hydroplate Theory”, there was a layer of water underneath the crust of the earth. The water was under tremendous pressure, eventually ruptered the crust and shot out of the earth at a tremendous velocity. If the cracks of the earth were just right, the water would have enough velocity to actually enter space, freeze, and fall back down to earth as ice. Such an occurance could literaly bury an object with tons of ice in a few seconds.
Was woolly a boy or a girl? I don’t recall them sayin which it was…but anyway, to clone they would need the right donor. I wonder if Dolly is available?
joemill:
And smashing it flatter than airmail paper.
Without abusing you too much, I would point out that this stretches Creationist hypotheses about as far as I’ve ever seen.
I know Genesis talks about the waters “below the earth,” and that the Flood involved releasing them. Any idea where those waters are now? Did Dr. Brown provide any actual math to show what sort of pressures would be required to perform this little act of projectile vomiting by the Earth?
I’m afraid I can actually get along better with someone who simply says “God made it happen.” than with folks who attempt to distort science into unreal dimensions to back up improbable events.
Sorry.
Tom~
Quote:
I know Genesis talks about the waters “below the earth,” and that the Flood involved releasing them. Any idea where those waters are now? Did Dr. Brown provide any actual math to show what sort of pressures would be required to perform this little act of projectile vomiting by the Earth?
Presumably, they are still on the face of the planet. Occording to the theory, there are still remnants of water left in the earth’s crust. Each year about 1 cubic mile of virgin water is brought to the earth’s surface by erupting volcanoes.
Dr. Brown does all the math to project velocities and so forth. I can find some numbers if you want them…
Well, joemill, I know you were asking tom, but yes, I want to see the math.
Don’t get me wrong–I love life. I’m just finding it harder and harder to keep myself amused.
More to the point, on the news this morning they (ABC, I think) were reporting that a wolly mammoth (possibly the same one mentioned in the article tom linked to), has been removed from the frozen tundra and is being transported to a lab as we speak. Scientists working on this projhect believe that they will be able to recover intact DNA from this mammoth and will attempt to clone it, using and elephant as a surrogate (as was mentioned by, I think, Dr. F.)
Don’t get me wrong–I love life. I’m just finding it harder and harder to keep myself amused.
Getting back to the OP, the scientists that found the Berezovka mammoth assumed that it had either a) fallen into a crevasse, and then become covered with snow, or b) become buried as the result of a collapsing ice bridge. That sounds plausible for other frozen mammoths, too. (Andrews, again)
Isn’t everyone tripping over their own shoelaces with this cloning a mammoth issue? Can DNA survive 20,000 years of severe freezing? I think the chains would be all broken after such a long time.
When it comes to specimens though, there should be plenty around. Hunters in Siberia have been collecting mammoth tusks for hundreds of years (I read somewhere that over 50,000 have been found) and there are pieces of these creatures strewn all over Siberia. I don’t know how many intact ones have been recovered. To my knowledge not many. I’d be interested in knowing how complete the remnants of this new discovery are. It’s probably mostly bone and hair.
Mammoths were elephants (family Elephantidae), and they were around until fairly recently. A modern elephant should be an extremely close genetic match, especially if the mammoth being cloned was a later specimen (the similarities might be wolf/German shepherd).
Regarding those rather imaginative theories about subterranean water pressure shooting up into the stratosphere and coming back down (as ice or water, who cares), I’d say that the appropriate “cracks” are found in the theory and application of the theory, not in the earth’s crust.
Abe
“For what is myth, but the deconstructive prose of a missing literary critic who lisps?”
–Harry Harrison
Why stop with cloning? If we wait a while longer, we can genetically built whatever we wish. I’d like to see a six-legged woolly mammoth with the head of a sheep myself. I’m afraid what we will actually end up with however is simply a lot of thousand-ton cattle and pigs. With the hot pepper sauce already designed in.
Kentucky Fried Wooly Mammoth! Mmmm! Them’s good eatin’!
(What kind of secret herbs & spices would the Colonel use for that, I wonder?)
YO-HO, ME HEARTIES! ALL HANDS ON DECK FOR THE MUSICAL BATTLE AT SEA!
Joemill is right that subterranean water comes out of volcanoes. Unfortunately for the rest of his theory, geologists know what the interior of the earth is like by interpreting seismographic records.
During an earthquake, vibrations travel completely through the earth. Seismographs in America registered the recent temblors in Taiwan and Turkey, for example. By triangulation, they determine where the epicenter is. When they know that, they know when it ACTUALLY happened, since it took X number of seconds for the waves from Taiwan to get to Pasadena.
Now here’s the important part: Waves are distorted (refracted) when they travel from one medium to another, like light passing through a glass of water (the water and glass refract the light, so a straw looks like it’s broken). Solid rock, solid metal, molten rock, liquid metal and water all refract earthquake waves differently and PREDICTABLY. In other words, if there’s a huge reservoir of water beneath the earth’s crust that is the source of the Flood, we’d detect it with every major earthquake.
We haven’t. It isn’t there.
As for how those woolly mammoths got frozen, I’d say they fell into holes, couldn’t get out, died and were frozen in the spot. Buttercups in their mouths were simply their last meals. Mammoth eats buttercup, takes a wrong step, falls into hole and dies instantly.) Did any of them have broken necks or spines?)
Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to relive it. Georges Santayana
Actually, there’s quite a bit of water in the subsurface. The pore spaces of rocks are generally filled with water (or, when you get lucky, hydrocarbons). But none of this water is going to do anything like joemill described. There’s no big pool. Everyone’s seen a brick absorb water; that filled pore spaces of the soaked brick illustrate the manner in which subsurface water hangs around.
As jab points out, if there were, we’d know about it; but I can’t even imagine the conditions that would allow its formation. Recorded seismic waves were the major evidence that allowed us to surmise that the outer core of the earth is liquid. P (compressional) waves are transmitted through liquid while S (shear) waves are not. There is a shear wave shadow created by the outer core. Any subsurface ocean would be detectable by its shear wave shadow. So count me as one who wants too see the evidence, joemill.
Trying to relate this to frozen mammoths,…well, I guess I’m just off topic. But they would transmit P & S waves.
I should’ve said “It probably isn’t there.” One can’t prove a negative. But if it’s highly unlikely to be there, I’m inclined to say that it isn’t.
And if I could clarify my explanation, not all seismographs register all earthquakes for the reasons beatle mentioned. Some of them are in the “shadow” of the earth’s core.
Thanks, beatle. I couuldn’t remember which of the two waves were blocked by liquid, so I didn’t mention them. (Are you Paul, George or Ringo? If you’re John, tell us what it’s like where you are.)
Another problem: If all that underground water was suddenly on the surface, wouldn’t the roof(s) of the chamber(s) collapse from the weight? (Was it one underground chamber full of water or many?)
Next: If that water froze the mammoths, how did they stay frozen? Wouldn’t they be at the bottom of the World Sea (to coin a name)? Or would they float? Wouldn’t they thaw? Wouldn’t the dead bodies be eaten by scavengers?
Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to relive it. Georges Santayana
I guess no one’s ever going to answer these questions…
Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to relive it. Georges Santayana
One more thing to clarify about this whole subject: When people hear about “frozen mammoths”, they probably think it’s in a block of ice. Actually, mummified mammoth is more like it. They’re not too different from the mummified human bodies that have been recently discovered in the Alps, South America and the Arctic.
Oh, and the mammoth cloning project is a bust. They couldn’t find even one intact strand of DNA. Maybe next time.
BTW, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone claims those mummified people and mammoths are actually victims of the Flood.
Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to relive it. Georges Santayana