# Frozen tundra **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 16, 2012, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frozen-tundra/613012 "2012-02-16T05:18:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frozen-tundra/613012/1 "2012-02-16T05:18:29Z")
To save another thread from being derailed any worse than it already has been, starting with post #16: [Citizen's Arrest? - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=642001) Is “frozen tundra” a redundancy? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frozen-tundra/613012/2 "2012-02-16T05:28:08Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > To save another thread from being derailed any worse than it already has been, starting with post #16: [Citizen's Arrest? - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=642001) > > Is “frozen tundra” a redundancy? Technically, no. “Tundra” has the specific meaning of being a place where limited sunlight and temperature limit tree growth. But all tundra on this planet is frozen for a pretty large part of the year and all, or just about all, has permafrost. There’s nowhere that is tundra that is not frozen a lot. It’s theoretically possible to have tundra that isn’t generally frozen, but we don’t have any examples. So PRACTICALLY speaking, it’s sort of redundant. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frozen-tundra/613012/3 "2012-02-16T05:28:19Z")
No. Tundra, or at least its surface layer, is not always frozen. The vegetative layer and the top layers of soil thaw out during the summer, even if there is permafrost below. ---
**Author:** ![wheresmymind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@wheresmymind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wheresmymind)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frozen-tundra/613012/4 "2012-02-16T05:45:36Z")
Not at all. Tundra can be quite lush in summer [(Here)](http://www.google.com/imgres?num=10&hl=en&gbv=2&biw=1280&bih=590&tbm=isch&tbnid=NYa7o5EBVlpIfM:&imgrefurl=http://water.engr.psu.edu/gooseff/arctic_proj.html&docid=ZnNAIk88H5p39M&imgurl=http://water.engr.psu.edu/gooseff/web_arctic/toolik_inlet.jpg&w=1024&h=768&ei=npQ8T4CCHLGQ0QGauv3yBw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=127&vpy=276&dur=2051&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=125&ty=83&sig=113157485650547638143&sqi=2&page=1&tbnh=124&tbnw=193&start=0&ndsp=19&ved=0CF0QrQMwBg), lots of green grass, moss, and lichens. Frozen _permafrost_ might be redundant, but in the tundra permafrost can start anywhere from several inches to several meters below the surface during summertime. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frozen-tundra/613012/5 "2012-02-16T14:20:22Z")
No. As I said in the other thread, tundra refers to the plant communites that form in areas of low temperatures. If it was permanently frozen it wouldn’t be tundra, it would be ice or rock. If it doesn’t thaw out every year long enough to support plant growth, then it’s not tundra, therefore tundra must be unfrozen some of the time, therefore frozen tundra is not a redundancy. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frozen-tundra/613012/6 "2012-02-16T15:03:35Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > To save another thread from being derailed any worse than it already has been, starting with post #16: [Citizen's Arrest? - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=642001) > > Is “frozen tundra” a redundancy? No. > **[Tundra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tundra)** > > In physical geography, a tundra (/ˈtʌndrə, ˈtʊn-/) is a type of biome where tree growth is hindered by frigid temperatures and short growing seasons. There are three regions and associated types of tundra: Arctic, Alpine, and Antarctic. > Tundra vegetation is composed of dwarf shrubs, sedges, grasses, mosses, and lichens. Scattered trees grow in some tundra regions. The ecotone (or ecological boundary region) between the tundra and the forest is known as the tree line or timberline. The tundra s... “Frozen” is not one of the defining features of tundra. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frozen-tundra/613012/7 "2012-02-16T15:12:51Z")
Not after global warming. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frozen-tundra/613012/8 "2012-02-16T15:16:03Z")
Only at [Lambeau Field](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambeau_Field#.22The_Frozen_Tundra.22) in December and January. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frozen-tundra/613012/9 "2012-02-16T15:20:54Z")
As I noted in the other thread, sometimes tundra climate is a function of high altitude rather than high latitude. IIRC, there are even a couple of cases of equatorial tundra in the Andes. And often the depth-to-bedrock is such that permafrost is absent; it’s tundra because it’s ground cover above the tree line. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frozen-tundra/613012/10 "2012-02-16T15:50:42Z")
> [@wheresmymind](#): > > Not at all. Tundra can be quite lush in summer [(Here)](http://www.google.com/imgres?num=10&hl=en&gbv=2&biw=1280&bih=590&tbm=isch&tbnid=NYa7o5EBVlpIfM:&imgrefurl=http://water.engr.psu.edu/gooseff/arctic_proj.html&docid=ZnNAIk88H5p39M&imgurl=http://water.engr.psu.edu/gooseff/web_arctic/toolik_inlet.jpg&w=1024&h=768&ei=npQ8T4CCHLGQ0QGauv3yBw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=127&vpy=276&dur=2051&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=125&ty=83&sig=113157485650547638143&sqi=2&page=1&tbnh=124&tbnw=193&start=0&ndsp=19&ved=0CF0QrQMwBg), lots of green grass, moss, and lichens. Frozen _permafrost_ might be redundant, but in the tundra permafrost can start anywhere from several inches to several meters below the surface during summertime. In Alaska, the lichens and other vegetation of the tundra provide forage for caribou, as it does for the reindeer of Scandinavia. Berries that grow there (such as [cloudberries](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubus_chamaemorus) and blueberries) are an important part of the Native diet. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frozen-tundra/613012/11 "2012-02-16T18:45:15Z")
Since 1975 (first year of college)I haven’t been able to see or hear the word “tundra” without thinking about trudging across one, mile after mile. Right down to the parish of St. Alfonzo. ---
**Author:** ![SeaDragonTattoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeaDragonTattoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaDragonTattoo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frozen-tundra/613012/12 "2012-02-18T01:08:32Z")
I ran around on tundra for a few minutes in Alaska, in August. Our bus pulled over to the side of the dirt/gravel road and we tourists all got out to take pictures and stretch our legs (Dalton Highway - loooong trip on a bus). In the spirit of stretching my legs, and to run on tundra, I took off a ways perpendicular to the road. Very spongy, and almost as difficult as running in sand. Didn’t seem to stop the grizzly bears in the distance, which got me running back to the bus pronto! Definitely not frozen at that time. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frozen-tundra/613012/13 "2012-02-18T17:51:02Z")
Coming up next: why do people say “ATM machine”? 😃