# Frumpy girlfriend **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 23, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057 "2011-07-23T02:37:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/41 "2011-07-23T08:46:49Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > That. **ImNotPaulAvery** , you are a shallow asswipe. She, well, I don’t need to know anything about her because, re: the above, she’s too good for you. He’s a shallow asswipe because he wants the woman he loves to clean herself up a little? I disagree. If he came in here saying terrible, unfair things that would be one thing, but he really sounds sincerely upset over this. And if my partner let himself go and looked like a slob, I’d feel the same way. That’s not shallow, that’s a realistic expectation in a relationship. I think he probably will have to break up with her if he can’t find a way to tactfully tell her what he’s feeling. But I don’t think anything he’s said here is anything unreasonable. If he was an asshole, he’d just tell her straight up without worrying about her feelings. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/42 "2011-07-23T09:52:24Z")
I don’t think he’s an asshole for wishing she were different, but I have a problem with the way he assumes his expectations are the default and that she’s “not trying”. She’s likely not trying because she doesn’t see it as important. Hell, I don’t see that stuff as important, but neither does my husband, so we are good there. He’s taking her actions as an injury to him (I try what’s wrong with her that she won’t?) but there’s no evidence that she sees it that way, or understands that he does. He maintains his appearance as a love gift for her, and wants her to do the same for him, and resents her for not responding. But she may honestly assume he just maintains his appearance because it’s what he likes, and not have any clue it has anything to do with her, because she really doesn’t care, and it never occurs to her that he cares what she does. So he’s screaming out at her in a frequency she can’t even hear, and then upset that she isn’t responding. This sort of thing is a place where honest, reasonable people can disagree. They need to have a conversation about it, but it needs to not be accusatory. Right now, he’s saying 'what’s fucking WRONG WITH YOU that you don’t already know these things are important?" and that will never work. He needs to say “I really like it when you (whatever) and I was hoping you could start putting yourself together a little more at home. I love looking at you when you are made up, and it especially excites me to know you are making an effort for me.” The point is to say that this is a preference he has and a way he wants to shape their relationship, not the One Right Way To Be and that she is The One in The Wrong. If she’s not willing to change–if being a slob at home is just too central to her identity–it’d be best to break up, because that’s the very definition of incompatable. I don’t think he’s an asshole or a bad person. I think this kind of dispute–where someone’s expectations are so deeply held that they don’t realize they are not universal–are pretty common, and the whole point of living together with an eye toward marriage is to figure out these things. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/43 "2011-07-23T09:59:55Z")
I guess it’s kind of like how flabbergasted my wife has been at times that not only do I not pick up my socks off the floor, but I don’t even seem to notice that they’re there. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/44 "2011-07-23T10:10:24Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I don’t think he’s an asshole for wishing she were different, but I have a problem with the way he assumes his expectations are the default and that she’s “not trying”. She’s likely not trying because she doesn’t see it as important. Hell, I don’t see that stuff as important, but neither does my husband, so we are good there. He’s taking her actions as an injury to him (I try what’s wrong with her that she won’t?) but there’s no evidence that she sees it that way, or understands that he does. > > He maintains his appearance as a love gift for her, and wants her to do the same for him, and resents her for not responding. But she may honestly assume he just maintains his appearance because it’s what he likes, and not have any clue it has anything to do with her, because she really doesn’t care, and it never occurs to her that he cares what she does. So he’s screaming out at her in a frequency she can’t even hear, and then upset that she isn’t responding. > > This sort of thing is a place where honest, reasonable people can disagree. They need to have a conversation about it, but it needs to not be accusatory. Right now, he’s saying 'what’s fucking WRONG WITH YOU that you don’t already know these things are important?" and that will never work. He needs to say “I really like it when you (whatever) and I was hoping you could start putting yourself together a little more at home. I love looking at you when you are made up, and it especially excites me to know you are making an effort for me.” The point is to say that this is a preference he has and a way he wants to shape their relationship, not the One Right Way To Be and that she is The One in The Wrong. If she’s not willing to change–if being a slob at home is just too central to her identity–it’d be best to break up, because that’s the very definition of incompatable. > > I don’t think he’s an asshole or a bad person. I think this kind of dispute–where someone’s expectations are so deeply held that they don’t realize they are not universal–are pretty common, and the whole point of living together with an eye toward marriage is to figure out these things. I sorta agree, but to me she just sounds like she is just plain lazy. It sounds as if her most common thought is the words “couldn’t be bothered”. Its not just compatibility with the OP, I suspect this girl would eventually slip back into her lazy ways with any man she met. The fact is, she isnt going to get any better. You stay with this girl, it is going to be sweatpants and Oprah all the way. It surprises me not at all to hear she works in a grocery store, I bet that is the limit of her career ambitions too. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/45 "2011-07-23T10:53:18Z")
This can’t be serious. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/46 "2011-07-23T11:33:19Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > I sorta agree, but to me she just sounds like she is just plain lazy. It sounds as if her most common thought is the words “couldn’t be bothered”. Its not just compatibility with the OP, I suspect this girl would eventually slip back into her lazy ways with any man she met. See, you are looking at this as laziness, which is what the OP is doing. It’s not laziness not to put work into something you don’t care about. I mean, I don’t take care of my front yard beyond basic maintenance, but it’s not because I’m too lazy, it’s because I honestly don’t give a fuck if there are flowers out there. It’s not that she knows deep down inside that she “should” do these things and just can’t be bothered, it’s that she doesn’t really care and doesn’t know he does, either. > [@](#): > > The fact is, she isnt going to get any better. You stay with this girl, it is going to be sweatpants and Oprah all the way. It surprises me not at all to hear she works in a grocery store, I bet that is the limit of her career ambitions too. She’s not going to get “better” because there’s nothing wrong with her. It might change, if she’s willing to put effort into something that doesn’t really matter to her to keep him happy–whether or not she is will depend on how important not bothering is to her. There are things I do for my husband even though they really don’t matter to me, and there are things I wouldn’t be willing to change. Which is which is really hard to know without experimentation. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/47 "2011-07-23T12:45:17Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > If it were a gal complaining about her boyfriend never wearing decent clean clothes when they go out, not taking care of his hair or skin or cutting his toenails . . . well, the double standard around here is well known. The advice would be the same (break up – that’s the default position anyway) but with fewer “insensitive asswipes” thrown in, except perhaps at the boyfriend. There really aren’t a lot of “insensitive asswipes” being thrown around. It’s not a moral failing to not be attracted to someone for any reason, really. And it isn’t unreasonabe to want to be attracted to the person you are sleeping with. A relationship is what it is, not what it isn’t, and this isn’t working for ya. People rarely change much, so you might as well give up on trying that route. It’s sounding like you guys just aren’t a great match. Once you know that, it’s only fair to clue her in that you are not seeing a long term thing. Give her that dignity and the choice to leave on equal terms. She may genuinely not care, in which case she has to find somone who is cool with that- and there are plenty of guys who are fine with a woman who is a good mother, good lay or whatever even if she doesn’t spend time on looks. She may be a bit clueless, depending on her age. A 20 year old can have an ugly haircut and dress in pajamas and still get guys hitting on her. It can be quite a revealation that you are past that point where guys want you simply for being young and slim. It may take a bit, but she’ll figure it ou in her own way. ---
**Author:** ![Mrs.Cake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2acd7d/32.png) [@Mrs.Cake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrs.Cake)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/48 "2011-07-23T13:38:32Z")
I not ice that the OP mentions that her work clothes are grocery store uniforms - could she head for the couch at the end of the day becasue she is really tired from being on her feet dealing with clueless asshole customers all day in a dead-end, soul-killing job, and not because she just hates dressing up and putting on makeup at home? I know when I’ve had jobs like that it was really hard to get motivated to do anything for myself, let alone anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/49 "2011-07-23T13:44:33Z")
The premise of your relationship is wrong. You want her to change: it ain’t going to happen, at least not in the long term. People almost _never_ change themselves to suit your image of what they should be. End it now before you end up 10 years down the road hating each other. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/50 "2011-07-23T14:28:19Z")
Yo, OP, I figure you’ve got two choices here: either break up, or have one more try at the relationship. Breaking up is the easy solution, but if you wish the viewpoint of a happily married girl with chronic skin problems and a tendency to be “frumpy” read on, as it may (or may not) help you. > [@ImNotPaulAvery](#): > > She just doesn’t want to put forth the _effort_. If we’re not out somewhere then she is sitting on the couch in sweats and an old crappy T shirt. There’s been times I’ve come up with places to go just to get her to clean up a little bit. I have long had the tendency to wear “crappy” clothes at home for both comfort, and to keep my better clothes from getting stained or damaged while doing chores or whatever around the place. Also, when I get home from work the last thing I want to do is “dress up” - and it sounds like her work clothes aren’t that pretty, so that may be what’s going on here. Have you _told_ her that you think her dressing in stylish clothes is a real turn on for you? Have you told her the “frump” clothes are a turn off? Now, she’s unlikely to start coming home and changing into more up-style clothing every single night but she _might_ go to the effort a couple nights a week, especially if there’s dinner or an outing involved. Or maybe not. But until you try you won’t know. Yes, I’m talking about a formal date. I’ve been married 20 years, the spouse and I still go out on actual dates, it can be good for a relationship. > [@](#): > > I’ve given her Victoria’s Secret gift cards for her birthday, helped her buy clothes, etc. She spends the money but hardly wears any of it. Ask her why - is she waiting for an occasion? Does she need to be told you find her hot in those bits? She might need more than a hint. > [@](#): > > The worst part is her skin. She breaks out a lot but it is manageable. She used to treat it when we were first dating but now she just uses some gritty face scrub that I think only inflames her skin and makes it look like hell. Think big, red oozing bumps. I mean, I understand. I suffered with acne through my teen years and early 20’s but the difference is I actually made at least a half-assed effort at fixing it. Skin problems are a pain. I didn’t really get mine under control under I was 40 (and there’s a truly epic thread around here detailing the time I had to have what amounted to emergency surgery for a skin problem. It’s pretty ewwwww…) Perhaps she is discouraged from having tried numerous remedies that either didn’t work or made things worse. Me, I can NOT wear make up. As a result, I’m often accused of “not trying” but really, I look better without rashes, redness, infections, or blistering breakouts on my face, maybe she’s a woman that can’t tolerate make up, or at least not often. Maybe instead of buying her gift cards to Victoria’s Secret you should (very gently, VERY diplomatically) help her find a good dermatologist for some expert consultation on her skin problems. She may be dressing frumpy because she _feels ugly_ due to her bad skin. If a dermatologist could help her with that maybe she’d be more inclined to “make an effort”. > [@](#): > > She’s actually got a nice body, pretty thin. But she’s not very “endowed” up top. And she always wears old baggy T shirts. This combined with crappy skin, and frizzy hair just reminds me of 7th grade before girls started filling out and wearing make up. NOT a turn on. Is there a type of shirt YOU find is a turn on? On one of those date nights suggest she wear one for you, because you think she looks hot in it. > [@](#): > > Shit, if she would just clean up on a Friday night I’d be happy. Have you tried this? “Hey, honey - let’s go out on Friday. And let’s dress up a little, OK? Sure, I know you’re tired after work but after you rest up for an hour lets get a little dressed up and go out and do X.” What I’m asking here is _have you communicated_ with your girl? Have you told her what you like, what you want, what you find hot, what you find a turn on? Put it in _positive_ terms - not “your crappy clothes turn me off” but “honey, I think you look hot in this, would you wear it for me? I love it when you look good.” Maybe you HAVE done that, I don’t know. Not all women catch hints, some of us need to be told up front what our man does and doesn’t like. And finally - well, this might be a deal breaker for you. In which case, break up gently. As it happens, both me and my spouse are frumps at home, we’re comfortable with that, and we like that (though we do know how to “clean up” and “make and effort” and look good when we want or need to). She might be happier with another frump, and you might be happier with someone else. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/51 "2011-07-23T15:07:49Z")
Obviously, if she acts and dresses like Roseanne, you should start acting and dressing like John Goodman. ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/52 "2011-07-23T15:28:47Z")
I tend to dress casual and for comfort (after 24 years of marriage), but my clothes are clean, color coodinated, and accessorized. Hair always looks passable, a hint of makeup and perfume. If I’m all dressed up nice and made up, Mr. Sali says “where are you off to?”. In this horrendous heat I’ve been wearing a ratty old nightgown all week, a big sweaty mess - if Mr. Sali wants me to look “nice”, he’d better look into central AC…This is a tough one, OP, but I don’t know what you can do if she won’t take major hints. Maybe she’s tired and depressed, maybe she’s just fallen into the ‘comfortable’ zone. I would say break up now, why drag it out? If she asks why?? why?? - then you might convey your concerns, and then she may take a hint, but either it won’t last or she’ll just blow up at you for being ‘superficial’. It’s a tough one. (I have no doubt Mr. Sali would enjoy coming home to a much thinner, prettier me, wearing a pushup bra and tight jeans, but I figure after I pass on and he orders that mail-order bride he’s always threatening to send away for, he can dress her up like a Barbie doll :p). ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/53 "2011-07-23T16:10:47Z")
I’m having three-of-the-breadsticks flashbacks here. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/54 "2011-07-23T16:11:28Z")
> [@ImNotPaulAvery](#): > > Tonight she leaned to kiss me and I kind of pushed her away after a second. I just couldn’t do it. “You don’t love me anymore?” she asked. > > Fuck. It’s not like I’m asking for a supermodel here. I’m certainly not on the cover of GQ, but I do take care of myself. Shit, if she would just clean up on a Friday night I’d be happy. > > It really fucking sucks. I’ve done everything I can to drop hints, be supportive, etc. Everything except straight up tell her “I’m not attracted to you.” ☹ It seems like she is in some state of rebellion, or passive resistive behavior. It is exposing a ugly side of herself to you, and you are trying to fight it with products and work on her part (this also makes your love conditional - if you love me you will do these things, instead of her doing them out of love for you - this is not a good foundation - you don’t want this and it needs to change)- most likely the opposite of what she desires and repulses her as her ‘frumpiness’ repulses you. You need a different tact. You tried certain things and failed, why repeat them? Perhaps you can take a extended camping trip with her, maybe with other friends so you all can become somewhat disheveled and ‘frumpy’, and she can see herself in others around her, and see that it is not how she generally wants to be. After the trip, but before coming home, plan for a night at a hotel, perhaps one with a in room hot tub so you can both become clean together. ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/55 "2011-07-23T16:38:50Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > It’s OBVIOUS you two have some issues to resolve, and it’s good you came here rather than simply TROLL around aimlessly looking for advice. You’ve come to the right place for earnest recommendations, that much IS OBVIOUS. You make me want to smooch you. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/56 "2011-07-23T17:24:25Z")
Two words: Rough bathing. Hey, it could work wonders. Just don’t bang any parts of her (or yourself) that might hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Corrvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bbce88/32.png) [@Corrvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corrvin)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/57 "2011-07-23T17:42:58Z")
I’m agreeing with **Broomstick** that she may have tried conventional prettying-up and failed at it; I sucked at makeup too. Still do, in fact; my last two-hour cosmetics adventure ended in two days of swollen painful eyelids. I’m probably just reading myself into this situation, but maybe it fits: maybe the OP’s girl doesn’t want to be a girly-girl. Maybe she really wants to wear big ol’ butch jeans and clompy boots and a geeky pockety vest over a t-shirt (or, you know, whatever she likes that isn’t girly-girl garb), and because she knows HE likes girly-girls, she’s avoiding the fight by leaving him thinking that she’s just too TIRED to pretty up for him. There’s nothing wrong with being in love with someone, but being totally indifferent to what they find hot; it just means that when they notice you in _those_ clothes, you didn’t just happen to put them on. 😃 You negotiate what you wear with them for sexy times just like you negotiate other stuff in that part of life. ---
**Author:** ![AnalogSignal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/analogsignal/32/1085_2.png) [@AnalogSignal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnalogSignal)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/58 "2011-07-23T18:45:39Z")
What is it about this thread that inspires people to use UNNECESSARY ALL CAPS? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/59 "2011-07-23T19:51:30Z")
> [@salinqmind](#): > > This is a tough one, OP, but I don’t know what you can do if she won’t take major hints. . Why does it have to be hints? What’s wrong with sitting down and saying “I feel like a lot of the zing has gone out of our relationship, that we are taking each other for granted and it’s making me see you more like a roommate I really like than like someone I am passionately attracted to. I’d love to get back to where we were. I know, for me, I loved it when you dolled yourself up because I knew you were doing it for me and it makes me hot to know you are hoping to attract me. I am sure there are things I could also be doing more of to keep the spark between us fresh. What do you suggest?” ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/60 "2011-07-23T22:31:03Z")
> [@ImNotPaulAvery](#): > > If we’re not out somewhere then she is sitting on the couch in sweats and an old crappy T shirt. Looking good is important to me, even when I am relaxing. It doesn’t take much effort at all to wear a flattering t-shirt with some cute yoga pants and run a brush through your hair. How you present yourself says a lot about how you feel about yourself. Maybe you could try telling her that you like it when she shows off her body to you, and take her shopping for some relaxing clothes that don’t make her look like shit. She may not know that scrubbing her face make acne worse. Has she seen a dermatologist? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057.md?page=4)