# Frumpy girlfriend **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 23, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057 "2011-07-23T02:37:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/161 "2011-07-28T16:37:12Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There are two memes floating around out there: > > 1. Women who always wear makeup, get hair/nails done, dress fashionably, etc. are shallow. > > 2. Women who _don’t_ wear makeup, get hair/nails done, dress down are “not trying” and/or depressed or lazy slobs or whatever. > > Both, really, are bullshit. Agreed. But I think the second one is misconstruing the point a lot of folks are making here a bit: it’s not that women who don’t do the things you are listing are slobs. Rather, it’s that women who exclusively wear stained, ripped up, dirty clothes around the house, don’t bathe, etc are slobs. I mean, the same could be said for men, too. I suppose the OP didn’t exactly paint the most hygienic picture of his girlfriend. I’m sure he’d like if she put makeup on once in a while and gussied herself up, but it seems his general complaint is more that she’s not even coming close to meeting the general standards of acceptability for being clean. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/162 "2011-07-28T16:47:21Z")
Well, yeah, extremes are never good. A woman who ALWAYS dressed up, wouldn’t allow her man to see her without make-up, spent hours and hours a day on grooming… well, that might be a problem, too. It may be that the man here leans more towards number 1 and the woman towards number 2 without _either_ of them being that far off the happy middle. Girlfriend might be clean but frumpy. Man might be a little more fastidious than average. It’s up to them to either come to a workable accommodation or decide to break off. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/163 "2011-07-28T16:49:24Z")
I dunno, not cutting her toenails or brushing her teeth doesn’t strike me as clean but frumpy. (Assuming the OP isn’t exaggerating.) ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/164 "2011-07-28T17:34:35Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **Manda Jo** , I wasn’t talking about you. I was talking about the general idea that “it totally doesn’t matter what you look like – you can be a total slob, but you still have pride!” Caring about one’s appearance doesn’t make one shallow – and that’s what I was addressing. > > I’m not saying I sit around the house in full make-up and dressy clothes. I don’t. (I generally wear pj bottoms and plain tops). BUT…they’re clean, they’re neat, and I don’t wear anything dirty, stained and I make an attempt to stay clean and groomed (brush my hair, clean up, etc). I get the impression the OP’s girlfriend does neither. > > I also have seen around here the idea that women who LIKE to dress up and wear make-up and do their nails are shallow and somehow less intelligent. Which is bullshit. You are talking about me. I wear things around the house that are “dirty and stained” and I don’t make any particular attempt to keep clean if I am not leaving the house (which, to be fair, is usually once a day and never more than 48 hours, so I never find out just how dirty I would be willing to get.) I don’t think you are shallow or less intelligent because you’d never live like me. But don’t assume that I have poor self esteem or a character flaw because of a different style. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/165 "2011-07-28T18:04:49Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I dunno, not cutting her toenails or brushing her teeth doesn’t strike me as clean but frumpy. (Assuming the OP isn’t exaggerating.) I don’t get the impression that she actually doesn’t cut her toenails or brush her teeth, more that he’s taking things to an absurd extreme to counter the notion that his complaint is silly and shallow. I mean, if my spouse were actively unhygienic, I sure as shit wouldn’t think the worst part was their acne, and I wouldn’t suggest solutions like wearing a nice shirt and fixing his hair. I’d say the worst part was the lack of hygiene and suggest fixes like brushing his goddamn teeth. Gift certificates wouldn’t be for fancy undies, they would be for dental cleanings and pedicures. Then again, I do have a reputation as something of a blunt bitch, so maybe YMMV. > [@ImNotPaulAvery](#): > > The worst part is her skin. She breaks out a lot but it is manageable. > [@ImNotPaulAvery](#): > > I just want her to try to bring some sex appeal to our relationship. Wear a nice shirt. Fix her hair. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/166 "2011-07-28T18:06:34Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Total bullshit and yet it remains one of the most constant Doper memes. As I see it, if someone wants to judge my intelligence because I wear false eye lashes and tease my hair, well, that says more about their intelligence than mine. 😃 You wear false eye lashes and tease your hair? Unfriended NOW! ---
**Author:** ![fjs1fs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9e8a1a/32.png) [@fjs1fs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fjs1fs)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/167 "2011-07-28T18:52:45Z")
> [@ImNotPaulAvery](#): > > Yeah I’ll admit to that. But who isn’t? I’ll bet Paul Avery isn’t! ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/168 "2011-07-28T19:00:54Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There are two memes floating around out there: > > 1. Women who always wear makeup, get hair/nails done, dress fashionably, etc. are shallow. > > 2. Women who _don’t_ wear makeup, get hair/nails done, dress down are “not trying” and/or depressed or lazy slobs or whatever. > > Both, really, are bullshit. Seconded. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/169 "2011-07-28T19:19:03Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > You are talking about me. I wear things around the house that are “dirty and stained” and I don’t make any particular attempt to keep clean if I am not leaving the house (which, to be fair, is usually once a day and never more than 48 hours, so I never find out just how dirty I would be willing to get.) Do you also not brush your teeth, shower, or cut your toe nails on the regular? > [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > You wear false eye lashes and tease your hair? Unfriended NOW! Look, if you want to think I’m a bimbo who is dumb as a sack of potatoes, I assure you that there are much better reasons to feel that way than my lashes ;). ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/170 "2011-07-28T19:26:56Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Total bullshit and yet it remains one of the most constant Doper memes. As I see it, if someone wants to judge my intelligence because I wear false eye lashes and tease my hair, well, that says more about their intelligence than mine. 😃 PREACH. I _like_ getting pedicures and cleansing facials and wearing makeup and eyelashes and wearing cute clothes. I like it and I feel pampered. I have never claimed to be Ms Smarty Genius, but it doesn’t have anything to do with liking to be a girlie girl. I realize there are a lot of people who don’t give crap #1 about that kind of stuff and that’s awesome for them, but it bugs me that the Dope tradition has to be to look down at girlie-type activities with a superior sneer. For a place that likes to claim they are open-minded and accepting, it’s odd to me how often I see prejudice and rejection of anything that falls outside of what they deem important. ROCK THOSE EYELASHES! ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/171 "2011-07-28T21:53:42Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Do you also not brush your teeth, shower, or cut your toe nails on the regular? What’s “on the regular”? I shower when I leave the house. If I don’t leave the house all weekend, I probably don’t shower. I can’t remember the last time I went more than 48 hours without leaving the house, so it doesn’t go past that. I’ve been known to forget to brush my teeth on those same days where I don’t go anywhere. I have no idea what a proper nail trimming schedule is. I do know I painted my toenails once, for an event in February, and there’s still traces of paint on them that I haven’t bothered with. People have different tolerances for being dirty. It doesn’t have to mean anything about their inner psyche. It’s ok to not want to be with someone because their tolerances are different than yours. It’s ok to adjust your lifestyle because you want to accommodate someone else. I don’t think it’s ok to judge someone for being a slob but defend being neat as an ethically superior choice, or as an absolute indicator for having a healthy self-respect. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/172 "2011-07-28T22:02:24Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > It’s ok to not want to be with someone because their tolerances are different than yours. It’s ok to adjust your lifestyle because you want to accommodate someone else. I don’t think it’s ok to judge someone for being a slob but defend being neat as an ethically superior choice, or as an absolute indicator for having a healthy self-respect. Did you even read the OP? Her hair is frizzy and she wears baggy tops (even though she is thin, but not very “endowed”). She might as well be living on the street. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/173 "2011-07-28T22:54:01Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > It’s ok to not want to be with someone because their tolerances are different than yours. It’s ok to adjust your lifestyle because you want to accommodate someone else. I don’t think it’s ok to judge someone for being a slob but defend being neat as an ethically superior choice, or as an absolute indicator for having a healthy self-respect. Of course everyone is entitled to having their own tolerance, but my personal tolerance is that I’m not going to kiss, let alone fuck, someone who doesn’t brush their teeth every day. And, frankly, I don’t think most people would want to either. I mean, would you want to make out with someone who hasn’t brushed their teeth in a day or two? So, I suppose that’s where my sympathy for the OP lies. To me, brushing your teeth at least once a day is basic hygiene. Showering so your crotch is nice and clean is part and parcel to someone sticking their face down there (something I enjoy). Certainly, if I’m single or my boyfriend is out of town, I may schlub around more than normal, but if I want to kiss or have sex with or be physically close to someone, I make sure I’m nice and clean. Does that mean I’m dolled up with my hair teased to the sky and my best fuck me pumps on every time I want to get laid? Of course not. But I definitely am always clean. I don’t know, maybe that’s just me. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/174 "2011-07-28T23:14:28Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Of course everyone is entitled to having their own tolerance, but my personal tolerance is that I’m not going to kiss, let alone fuck, someone who doesn’t brush their teeth every day. And, frankly, I don’t think most people would want to either. I mean, would you want to make out with someone who hasn’t brushed their teeth in a day or two? So, I suppose that’s where my sympathy for the OP lies. > > To me, brushing your teeth at least once a day is basic hygiene. Showering so your crotch is nice and clean is part and parcel to someone sticking their face down there (something I enjoy). Certainly, if I’m single or my boyfriend is out of town, I may schlub around more than normal, but if I want to kiss or have sex with or be physically close to someone, I make sure I’m nice and clean. Does that mean I’m dolled up with my hair teased to the sky and my best fuck me pumps on every time I want to get laid? Of course not. But I definitely am always clean. I don’t know, maybe that’s just me. And that’s fine. And it’s fine for you to have those standards in a partner. It’d be fine if you showered twice a day and held your partner to that same standard. But I don’t think it’s reasonable to decide that everyone who doesn’t have those standards is suffering from a character flaw, or has no self-esteem, or is somehow inherently in the wrong. On one hand, you seem to be angry that anyone could dismiss you as shallow because you hold yourself to one set of standards, but you seem quick to dismiss others as disgusting slobs if they have slightly different standards. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/175 "2011-07-28T23:20:48Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > And that’s fine. And it’s fine for you to have those standards in a partner. It’d be fine if you showered twice a day and held your partner to that same standard. But I don’t think it’s reasonable to decide that everyone who doesn’t have those standards is suffering from a character flaw, or has no self-esteem, or is somehow inherently in the wrong. > > On one hand, you seem to be angry that anyone could dismiss you as shallow because you hold yourself to one set of standards, but you seem quick to dismiss others as disgusting slobs if they have slightly different standards. I guess, to me, brushing your teeth once a day is basic hygiene- something everyone should do. Perhaps that’s unreasonable of me, but I consider that different than the eyelash or teased hair thing, which, to me, is more akin to, say, a woman choosing not to wear makeup or do something fancy with her hair. Inconsequential things like her wearing jeans instead of a club dress or false eye lashes instead of no makeup. . . those are more shallow reasons to judge people. Basic things like showering, brushing your teeth, and wearing clean clothing (whatever it may be)? To me, I would wonder why someone wouldn’t do those things-- and it sounds like the OP’s girlfriend isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/176 "2011-07-28T23:38:18Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > I guess, to me, brushing your teeth once a day is basic hygiene- something everyone should do. Perhaps that’s unreasonable of me, but I consider that different than the eyelash or teased hair thing, which, to me, is more akin to, say, a woman choosing not to wear makeup or do something fancy with her hair. Inconsequential things like her wearing jeans instead of a club dress or false eye lashes instead of no makeup. . . those are more shallow reasons to judge people. Basic things like showering, brushing your teeth, and wearing clean clothing (whatever it may be)? To me, I would wonder why someone wouldn’t do those things-- and it sounds like the OP’s girlfriend isn’t. I think this is one of those “everyone who drives slower than me is a wimp and everyone who drives faster is a maniac” things. I know lots of people who brush their teeth religiously after every single meal–I see them come out of the bathroom at work with toothbrush and toothpaste all the time. They’d probably consider once a day to be below basic hygiene. I know people who shower twice a day, every day, and people who shower every other day, and it doesn’t make a perceptible difference near as I can tell. I guess my point is that a lot of these lines are fairly arbitrary. That doesn’t make them less real, and it’s obviously important to either find a partner who shares them, or is willing to humor the other partner’s concerns. But saying things like “I would wonder why someone wouldn’t do those things”–which, correct me if I am wrong, I think means “I would really think less of someone who didn’t do those things, as they either are disordered in their thinking or lacking in character”–seems no more fair, for want of a better word, than the 2-times a day showering/3 times a day teeth-brushing crowd saying the same about you. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/177 "2011-07-28T23:44:49Z")
Perhaps the OP’s girlfriend feels HE isn’t worth dressing up for? 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![papergirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/aca169/32.png) [@papergirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/papergirl)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/178 "2011-07-29T01:12:30Z")
I’ve been following this thread without having anything much to contribute beyond thinking to myself, “Why on earth would my SO presume to tell me how to dress/look/etc?” I wonder, though…what if the OP had complained that his girlfriend always dresses up, even around the house? She always insists on wearing makeup, perfume, high heels. She shows too much cleavage and is maybe a mite too sexy when she goes to the store or out with friends. She’s just overall too good looking and attractive, and he doesn’t like it. He makes an effort to look like a committed man, and she, meanwhile, looks like she’s available. I think he’d still get plenty of advice, but I wonder how much of it would be directed at getting HER to change her behavior…I think there’d be a decided leaning toward her right to dress as she pleases, etc. All that being said, he has a right to discuss his wishes with her. And she has a right to tell him to stuff it. The only thing he can control is his own behavior, and the only expectations he can enforce are those he sets for himself. ---
**Author:** ![perfectparanoia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a5b964/32.png) [@perfectparanoia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/perfectparanoia)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/179 "2011-07-29T02:09:38Z")
I sit here in my frumpiest t-shirt and baggy sweatshorts. My hair is fresh from a dip in the pool (a frizzy, fruffy mess). My eyeliner is making me look like a raccoon. I have not brushed my teeth since early this morning. And my feet kinda smell. This thread actually prompted me to ask my husband if he cared that I was frumpy. He looked at me like I had three heads and said no. He did suggest that I could wear less clothing in general and got a twinkle in his eye. And that’s why I married him. He loves me warts and all. (Not that I have warts per se…). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057/180 "2011-07-29T04:08:46Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > To me, brushing your teeth at least once a day is basic hygiene. It’s also basic health. No one’s saying you have to do it after every meal, **Manda Jo** , but not brushing at all for a few days? That’s not good. I don’t think that’s shallow for the OP to expect that AT ALL. No offense? But that would totally be a deal breaker for me. Once a day isn’t unreasonable. Hell, I brush every day (at LEAST once – I always brush after I eat breakfast, and I try to remember to do so before bed), and I still get cavities. Which reminds me, I gotta call the dentist to have this one filled. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frumpy-girlfriend/590057.md?page=10)