# FTR: Ephebophilia != pedophilia **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 29, 2014, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914 "2014-08-29T23:02:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914/1 "2014-08-29T23:02:36Z")
I refuse to feel anything but good about myself for digging Traci Lords’ early films, and 15 should be the age of consent nationwide. ---
**Author:** ![Vercingetorix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/848f3c/32.png) [@Vercingetorix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vercingetorix)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914/2 "2014-08-29T23:16:22Z")
It might as well be. It’s the desire to have sex with people who do not have the brain development or judgement to consent to sex, especially with an adult. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914/3 "2014-08-29T23:43:08Z")
This should go well. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914/4 "2014-08-29T23:51:05Z")
> [@Vercingetorix](#): > > It might as well be. It’s the desire to have sex with people who do not have the brain development or judgement to consent to sex, especially with an adult. For thousands of years of human history in cultures across continents it was the normal age for a woman/girl to bear her first child. Mitochondrial Eve probably did that. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914/5 "2014-08-29T23:51:51Z")
They aren’t the same; sex with someone who is old enough to have their own sex drive is morally different than sex with someone who isn’t. Pedophilia is predatory and destructive by its nature; sex with someone old enough to want it (and who may even be the initiator) isn’t. And our present age of consent laws fail an important test; due to being set so high they are routinely ignored, which undercuts the institution of law itself and calls their legitimacy into question. Now, we’ve decided as a society that it’s a _bad idea_ for late teens to have sex; but that’s not the same thing as it being a predatory act by its nature. And it’s not helping anything by grabbing young couples, branding the boy a “sex criminal” for life and giving the girl “counseling for her trauma” (while not acknowledging that her trauma consists of seeing her boyfriend’s life ruined). Nor is there anything “perverted” about adults finding a late teens girl attractive; our culture may have decided otherwise, but that’s what our biology says is “old enough for sex”. And while we can control our _actions_ it’s foolish to pretend we can just turn off our instincts, or to pretend that natural desires are perverted - if natural desires are perverse, then what isn’t “perverse”?. I do think that [“Romeo and Juliet” laws](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_rape#Romeo_and_Juliet_laws) are a good idea. At least that helps get rid of the scenario where teenage couples are being arrested for normal human behavior. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914/6 "2014-08-29T23:58:52Z")
> [@](#): > > The greatest difficulty in organising a family establishment in Ohio, is getting servants, or, as it is there called, “getting help,” for it is more than petty treason to the Republic, to call a free citizen a servant. The whole class of young women, whose bread depends upon their labour, are taught to believe that the most abject poverty is preferable to domestic service. Hundreds of half-naked girls work in the paper-mills, or in any other manufactory, for less than half the wages they would receive in service; but they think their equality is compromised by the latter, and nothing but the wish to obtain some particular article of finery will ever induce them to submit to it. A kind friend, however, exerted herself so effectually for me, that a tall stately lass soon presented herself, saying, “I be come to help you.” The intelligence was very agreeable, and I welcomed her in the most gracious manner possible, and asked what I should give her by the year. > > “Oh Gimini!” exclaimed the damsel, with a loud laugh, “you be a downright Englisher, sure enough. I should like to see a young lady engage by the year in America! **I hope I shall get a husband before many months, or I expect I shall be an outright old maid, for I be most seventeen already;** besides, mayhap I may want to go to school. You must just give me a dollar and half a week, and mother’s slave, Phillis, must come over once a week, I expect, from t’other side the water, to help me clean.” I agreed to the bargain, of course, with all dutiful submission; and seeing she was preparing to set to work in a yellow dress parseme with red roses, I gently hinted, that I thought it was a pity to spoil so fine a gown, and that she had better change it. > > “'Tis just my best and my worst,” she answered, “for I’ve got no other.” [_Domestic Manners of the Americans_](http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/10345/pg10345.html), by Frances Trollope (1832) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914/7 "2014-08-30T00:02:53Z")
Uncomfortably agreeing with **BrainGlutton** and **Der Trihs**. Also uncomfortably agreeing with **Smeghead**. (Previous threads regarding “Bad Thing A is worse than Bad Thing B” have tended to derail violently. “So, you’re perfectly okay with Bad Thing B.” Depressingly predictable.) ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914/8 "2014-08-30T00:05:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > For thousands of years of human history in cultures across continents it was the normal age for a woman/girl to bear her first child. Mitochondrial Eve probably did that. Whether or not this is or was universally true across cultures, this is not, as I suspect you know, the correct yardstick to use. Our ancestors did lots of things that we no longer consider appropriate. Slavery being just one example that comes to mind. As a society, we judge that adults should not have sex with children. 15 year olds count. The fact that an adult might think that a particular 15 year is developed enough to appear adult, doesn’t make it true. This is not going to go well. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914/9 "2014-08-30T00:09:09Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Uncomfortably agreeing with **BrainGlutton** and **Der Trihs**. > > Also uncomfortably agreeing with **Smeghead**. > > (Previous threads regarding “Bad Thing A is worse than Bad Thing B” have tended to derail violently. “So, you’re perfectly okay with Bad Thing B.” Depressingly predictable.) You’re right that lusting after 15 year olds isn’t as bad as lusting after 5 year olds. But they’re both bad. There’s plenty of porn made by legal adults. You shouldn’t watch Traci Lords videos, it makes you a bad person supporting the exploitation of underage troubled people. Also, if the law is out for you for some reason, and finds those videos, that might not be good for you. ETA: Also people who say “Murder is worse than theft” rarely continue by saying “I refuse to feel bad about all my stealing.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914/10 "2014-08-30T00:12:21Z")
It’s strange – we live in a culture that hypersexualizes pre-pubescents (in kiddie-pageants, etc.) while simultaneously infantilizing teenagers. ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914/11 "2014-08-30T00:15:19Z")
> [@ddsun](#): > > Whether or not this is or was universally true across cultures, this is not, as I suspect you know, the correct yardstick to use. Our ancestors did lots of things that we no longer consider appropriate. Slavery being just one example that comes to mind. > > As a society, we judge that adults should not have sex with children. 15 year olds count. The fact that an adult might think that a particular 15 year is developed enough to appear adult, doesn’t make it true. > > This is not going to go well. The Catholic CHurch holds that Virgin Mary was 14 when Jesus as born! ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914/12 "2014-08-30T00:15:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It’s strange – we live in a culture that hypersexualizes pre-pubescents (in kiddie-pageants, etc.) while simultaneously infantilizing teenagers. Kiddie pagents are terrible, but they are indulged in by a small minority of weirdos. And the fact that they exist is no reason for you to feel proud of yourself for jerking off to an exploited teenager. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914/13 "2014-08-30T00:16:15Z")
I’ll agree that there’s nothing abnormal or pathological or squicky about finding anyone sexually attractive even if they’re legally underage. Having such desires is one thing; acting on them is another. Also note that, according to Wikipedia (not that that’s the last word), “Ephebophilia is the **primary or exclusive** adult sexual interest in mid-to-late adolescents, generally ages 15 to 19. … Ephebophilia strictly denotes the preference for mid-to-late adolescent sexual partners, not the mere presence of some level of sexual attraction” (bolding mine). I’m not sure what the psychological implications are of an adult who’s _only_ attracted to teenagers, but it gives me pause. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914/14 "2014-08-30T00:32:16Z")
> [@DingoelGringo](#): > > The Catholic CHurch holds that Virgin Mary was 14 when Jesus as born! Right. Forgot that. Never mind then. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914/15 "2014-08-30T00:36:49Z")
> [@ddsun](#): > > Right. Forgot that. Never mind then. :rolleyes: God, that rolleyes smiley is awful. ETA: Not your fault of course, **ddsun.** But it makes you look like you’re agreeing with the guy it’s directed at. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914/16 "2014-08-30T00:49:31Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I’ll agree that there’s nothing abnormal or pathological or squicky about finding anyone sexually attractive even if they’re legally underage. Having such desires is one thing; acting on them is another. I’ll agree with this as long as it’s clear we’re talking about teenagers who are fully sexually developed physically. The reproductive needs of the species and later the societal views that once made young teenage motherhood the norm no longer exist and we now know that adults should not be having sex with what are essentially still children who have a great deal of difficulty making informed, well considered decisions. Now if they go and both willingly boink each other I think it’s not the best of circumstances but in no way is it criminal. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914/17 "2014-08-30T01:04:55Z")
Debate, possibly. Great, not. Off to IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914/18 "2014-08-30T01:10:20Z")
Ephebophile, n: Pedo with a dictionary. I kid, I kid…sorta. Hasn’t it been proposed that one reason for lowering age of menarche is due to better nutrition, especially high consumption of meat and milk? In the past, that didn’t happen until they were like 15-16, which makes the young marrying off each skeevier. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914/19 "2014-08-30T01:13:41Z")
I’ll note that I’m in favor of Romeo-and-Juliet laws, but also cite this - > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Also note that, according to Wikipedia (not that that’s the last word), “Ephebophilia is the **primary or exclusive** adult sexual interest in mid-to-late adolescents, generally ages 15 to 19. … Ephebophilia strictly denotes the preference for mid-to-late adolescent sexual partners, not the mere presence of some level of sexual attraction” (bolding mine). I’m not sure what the psychological implications are of an adult who’s _only_ attracted to teenagers, but it gives me pause. …If you’re an adult and **prefer** teen partners, that is pretty messed up. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914/20 "2014-08-30T01:15:57Z")
You feel good about yourself for jacking off alone in your basement? I feel good about myself when I have mutually satisfying sex in a loving relationship, but hey, your way has it’s charms, I guess. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ftr-ephebophilia-pedophilia/696914.md?page=2)