# FU Barry Bonds **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 23, 2005, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fu-barry-bonds/295810 "2005-03-23T00:31:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fu-barry-bonds/295810/81 "2005-03-26T14:36:15Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I mean be serious. Is there a single quote from the pre-ban era from a player saying, “Sure, I take steroids. Why shouldn’t I? They aren’t against the rules!” This is surely the dumbest argument in the history of the English language, isn’t it, that something must merit punishment as if it violated a specific rule, even though it didnt, solely because people wouldn’t admit to it? Many people won’t admit to whacking off, either; does that mean spanking the money is equivalent to an illegal act? Most men who dress up in ladies’ clothing when their wives aren’t around would, if asked by a reporter, say they did nothing of the sort, so should it be a criminal offense? Nobody is questioning that the entire thing stinks. Well, maybe Neurotik is, but I am sure even he would agree this hasn’t been good for the sport. But it’s NOT equivalent to gambling on baseball. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fu-barry-bonds/295810/82 "2005-03-26T15:07:33Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Nobody is questioning that the entire thing stinks. Well, maybe Neurotik is, but I am sure even he would agree this hasn’t been good for the sport. But it’s NOT equivalent to gambling on baseball. No, I don’t think it was good for the sport and it does stink. And I’m not really for steroids. I’m a fan of testing and all that, I just can’t bring myself to care enough to get all outraged. So they used steroids. Lots of people in every other sport do it, too. Hell, a bunch of NFL players were subpoened for the BALCO thing, too, but nobody said a peep about that. And, of course, I get a chuckle everytime I hear that a player has a “new workout routine” that allowed him to “put on 10 pounds of muscle in the offseason” and nobody suspects steroids. Nobody is calling for the NFL records of the 70s and 80s when steroid use was rampant in that league to be asterisked or thrown out. Steroid use is going to happen in some form or another in just about every sport because athletes will do whatever they can to gain any sort of edge. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fu-barry-bonds/295810/83 "2005-03-26T15:50:18Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > " They were illiegal, but MLB rules didn’t prohibit or punish their use. It wasn’t cheating unless they continued it into last season. I love this bullshit argument; as if MLB rules somehow supercede the law of the land. Steroids are illegal to possess, let alone use without a doctors prescription. Murder is illegal too, but I bet its not enumerated in MLBs rule book that you can’t stab an infielder. So maybe A-Rod should have killed that 1stbaseman during that infamous play. Using your argument, if it nots against the rules of MLB its okay. :rolleyes: I don’t give a shit about MLB rules, thats just a smoke screen. There is an implcit understanding that you don’t use unfair advantages, you’re supposed to be testing your skill against your opponents skill, period! If you think of finding loopholes in rulebooks as a skill then you are a sad excuse for a human being. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fu-barry-bonds/295810/84 "2005-03-26T16:03:38Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > IThere is an implcit understanding that you don’t use unfair advantages, you’re supposed to be testing your skill against your opponents skill, period! Oh, please. People find and use every single unfair advantage they can find in sports - especially professional sports. Football players do all sorts of illegal things at the line because the refs know they aren’t going to see it. Same with every other sport. What’s it like living in happy, magic fairyland where every professional athlete plays according to the spirit of the rules? Hell, the only reason we have base stealing in baseball is because Ned Cuthbert found a loophole in the rules in 1863. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fu-barry-bonds/295810/85 "2005-03-26T16:36:54Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > Oh, please. People find and use every single unfair advantage they can find in sports - especially professional sports. Football players do all sorts of illegal things at the line because the refs know they aren’t going to see it. Same with every other sport. > > What’s it like living in happy, magic fairyland where every professional athlete plays according to the spirit of the rules? Hell, the only reason we have base stealing in baseball is because Ned Cuthbert found a loophole in the rules in 1863. Yeah great I live in a fantasy world :wally Nice of you to ignore the other part of the post - that the law of the land supercedes a game’s rules. So I guess steroids are a good thing after all – what was I thinking? Hey, I know, why not allow genetic tampering too? You could have your muscles converted to those of a cheetah (no pun intended) and you could run to first base in 1 sec, thus guaranteeing yourself a hit 99% of the time. Cool. Well there’s no rule against it - all’s fair. I hated kids that had your attitude and I find adults with it even more reprehensible. You’re basically cowards in that you fear an actual fair test of skill, because heaven forbid someone beat you, your gonads would shrivel in embarassment. No, gotta have that unfair advantage, how else can I win, win, win? ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fu-barry-bonds/295810/86 "2005-03-26T19:29:54Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > I don’t give a shit about MLB rules, thats just a smoke screen. You don’t give a shit about the rules… great. Remind me never to play any games with you. The law of the land and the rules of the game are two very different things. Players who used steroids before they were against the rules were criminals - they violated federal law. But it’s MLB’s responsibility to make rules regarding the sport itself. How about someone who played for the Padres who headed down to Tijuana every morning before practice to get his injections? He never possessed steroids within the United States, and never injected them illegally. He didn’t violate MLB rules. Yet you want to villify him because he was trying to make himself a better player than everyone else. > [@](#): > > There is an implcit understanding that you don’t use unfair advantages, you’re supposed to be testing your skill against your opponents skill, period! Rules exist to define fair and unfair within the game. If something is against the rules, it’s unfair; if something isn’t prohibited, it’s fair. Both teams play by the same set of rules. If MLB adopted the **BwanaBob** Honor Code without putting it into writing, there’s no way to guarrantee that every team is playing by the same rules. And I’m pretty sure that stabbing the second baseman would be covered by the rules and policies prohibiting physical altercations. When it comes to their steroid policy, MLB fucked up at every turn. They ignored the issue in the 80s and 90s, when it could have been handled much earlier. WHile they established policies for the use of other illegal drugs, they did not extend thos to cover performance enhancers. When force into it by public opinion, they designed a smokescreen, toothless testing scheme that allowed a player to test positive four times before he ever missed a game by suspension. Only when cornered by Congress did the league actually lay out a reasonable plan to deal with performance enhancing drugs. This entire controversy could have been headed off 15 years ago, but MLB chose not to act. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fu-barry-bonds/295810/87 "2005-03-26T19:50:55Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > This is surely the dumbest argument in the history of the English language, isn’t it, that something must merit punishment as if it violated a specific rule, even though it didnt, solely because people wouldn’t admit to it? Many people won’t admit to whacking off, either; does that mean spanking the money is equivalent to an illegal act? Most men who dress up in ladies’ clothing when their wives aren’t around would, if asked by a reporter, say they did nothing of the sort, so should it be a criminal offense? Yes, that would indeed be a dumb argument, that someone should be punished for a crime that was not even a crime as a result of _not_ admitting said crime. The fact that you infer such a position does indeed suggest a certain idiocy. What _I_ suggested was that if this were an act without the taint of cheating–by virtue of the fact that it had not been banned–than certainly we would have heard a SINGLE F@#%ING PLAYER admit to it. Similar to, oh, let’s say, whacking off or men dressing up in women’s clothing, just to pick two examples for which you seem to have some affection. There are actually people who unashamedly admit to these activities. Now, read this again several times and see if it makes more sense to you. If not, feel free to tilt against the windmill of your choice. > [@](#): > > Nobody is questioning that the entire thing stinks. Well, maybe Neurotik is, but I am sure even he would agree this hasn’t been good for the sport. But it’s NOT equivalent to gambling on baseball. Jesus, do you straw man much? When I argue that steroids are the equivalent of gambling, I’ll be sure to let you know. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fu-barry-bonds/295810/88 "2005-03-26T19:55:24Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > Whoop-de-damn doo. And how many Red Sox players were taking steroids? > > It just doesn’t matter to me. I don’t care about steroids. Let them all juice for all I care. Whatever. This ain’t a matter of life and death. If steroids don’t constitute an unfair advantage to you, then let 'em do what they want. I don’t happen to agree. And if the Sox took steroids, then let the facts be known and the whole stupid lot can jump in the lake as far as I’m concerned. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fu-barry-bonds/295810/89 "2005-03-26T23:10:05Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > You don’t give a shit about the rules… great. Remind me never to play any games with you. The law of the land and the rules of the game are two very different things. Players who used steroids before they were against the rules were criminals - they violated federal law. But it’s MLB’s responsibility to make rules regarding the sport itself. How about someone who played for the Padres who headed down to Tijuana every morning before practice to get his injections? He never possessed steroids within the United States, and never injected them illegally. He didn’t violate MLB rules. Yet you want to villify him because he was trying to make himself a better player than everyone else. > Rules exist to define fair and unfair within the game. If something is against the rules, it’s unfair; if something isn’t prohibited, it’s fair. Both teams play by the same set of rules. If MLB adopted the **BwanaBob** Honor Code without putting it into writing, there’s no way to guarrantee that every team is playing by the same rules. > > And I’m pretty sure that stabbing the second baseman would be covered by the rules and policies prohibiting physical altercations. > > When it comes to their steroid policy, MLB fucked up at every turn. They ignored the issue in the 80s and 90s, when it could have been handled much earlier. WHile they established policies for the use of other illegal drugs, they did not extend thos to cover performance enhancers. When force into it by public opinion, they designed a smokescreen, toothless testing scheme that allowed a player to test positive four times before he ever missed a game by suspension. Only when cornered by Congress did the league actually lay out a reasonable plan to deal with performance enhancing drugs. This entire controversy could have been headed off 15 years ago, but MLB chose not to act. You all skirt the real issue - to try to gain an unfait/hidden/secret advantage undermines sports. It is not a “fair” competition anymore. Any you’re taking my comment about not caring about the rules in the wrong way - I meant that I don’t care if something isn’t explicitly forbidden in the rules. Rule books seem to have been turned inside out. I assume if it’s not in the rule book, it is “NOT ALLOWED”. Is there anything in MLB rule book concerning “bugging” the opponents dugout? Sorry but even if its not in the rule book you’re cheating. I feel like I’m arguing with my 5 year old. If he tries to go out the back door and I want him to stay in, and I say You cannot go out that door, he immediately tries to go out the front door. He’s like a lawyer. But both he and some of you like to be wise guys ignoring the spirit of the rules and look for technicalities as excuses. I give up talking to you people. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fu-barry-bonds/295810/90 "2005-03-27T00:06:51Z")
The spirit of sports is fine when you’re playing with your friends, but it flies out the window when you’ve got a multi-billion dollar industry built around it. The way professional sports work today, lawyers are necessary, and rulebooks have to be written incredibly explicitely. If something is not addressed in the rulebook, it’s sort of in limbo until someone tries it - then it will be ruled either legal or illegal. Your view of professional sports is idealistic, but I think it’s also naive. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fu-barry-bonds/295810/91 "2005-03-27T02:53:37Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Now, read this again several times and see if it makes more sense to you. If not, feel free to tilt against the windmill of your choice.Jesus, do you straw man much? When I argue that steroids are the equivalent of gambling, I’ll be sure to let you know. Read the fucking thread, dumbshit. A comparison was made between steroids and gambling. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’m not trying to defend the man, mind you. I just think that his gambling (assuming he never bet against his own team) had less effect on the outcome of games than steroids. That was what your quote was replying to. One can certainly disagree with **rickjay** , and I certainly have, but to accuse him of posting a strawman is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fu-barry-bonds/295810/92 "2005-03-27T04:46:59Z")
Each voter can select up to 10 candidates per year, although typically only about 2 get in. If they adopted the **RickJay** standard, it wouldn’t take long to clear a hellacious backlog, at that chosen erratically instead of by their relative scores on any kind of objective scale - but at least we’d get to stop hearing the whining about Blyleven. [The rules, for those of you.](http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/rules.htm) > [@](#): > > Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played. See that? Only 2 of the 6 criteria, perhaps 3, are about anything quantifiable at all. Three of the 6, perhaps 4, are about the stuff we’ve been discussing here. Bonds has the record, playing ability, and contributions to his team’s winning to overcome his lack of integrity, sportsmanship, and character. That’s a shame, really. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fu-barry-bonds/295810/93 "2005-03-27T12:14:39Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > Read the fucking thread, dumbshit. A comparison was made between steroids and gambling. Jesus, what an idiot. Read my post, genius–the one he responded to–and show me where I (not someone else in the thread, asshole, since he was answering _me_) drew an equivalency between gambling and steroids. I did mention both, you see (hence Rickjay’s non sequitur of a response). Just show me where I said that both activities were equivalent. You can’t? So, Rickjay responded to me, countering a point I hadn’t made. Let’s see, what do we call that around here? Oh! I know. A \* straw man\*. Now, let that rattle around for a while in that tiny receptacle you call your skull and see if it makes sense. Moron. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fu-barry-bonds/295810/94 "2005-03-27T12:19:43Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m not trying to defend the man, mind you. I just think that his gambling (assuming he never bet against his own team) had less effect on the outcome of games than steroids. By the way, genius, since you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension, you understand that even this statement does not make steroids and gambling equivalent? Gambling may be a far worse crime on an individual basis. This statement does not contradict that. What it does posit is that rampant steroid use may well have changed the outcome of many, many more games than Pete Rose’s gambling ever did. See if that can sink in as well, Einstein. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fu-barry-bonds/295810/95 "2005-03-27T22:07:50Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Jesus, what an idiot. I came in here to apologize, as I had conflated **RickJay** ’s response to you with an earlier exchange he had with **Cheesesteak**. But fuck it. Both steroids and gambling have been mentioned and compared in this thread. You yourself mentioned them in the same post. There is discussion of both, and comparison of the two, and if you’re too blind to see that, I can’t help that. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fu-barry-bonds/295810/96 "2005-03-27T23:06:14Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > I came in here to apologize, as I had conflated **RickJay** ’s response to you with an earlier exchange he had with **Cheesesteak**. > > But fuck it. Both steroids and gambling have been mentioned and compared in this thread. You yourself mentioned them in the same post. There is discussion of both, and comparison of the two, and if you’re too blind to see that, I can’t help that. Listen, if you came in here to apologize, I can make nice too. I just don’t react well to being called a dumbshit. Call it a character flaw. It’s all water under the bridge, though, if you want it to be. But surely you can see the difference between mentioning two things and calling them equivalent, right? That’s just not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fu-barry-bonds/295810/97 "2005-03-28T04:52:36Z")
While character is, appropriately, listed as a criterion in Hall of Fame voting guidelines, as a practical matter, it matters only when there’s a close call. Even if Mario Mendoza were the most devout Christian, most generous philanthropist and most worthy role model who ever lived, he wouldn’t deserve a spot in Cooperstown. Conversely, even if someone discovered a dozen dead bodies buried under Hank Aaron’s house, Hank would still belong in the Hall. Character only comes into play when you’ve got one of those borderline very-good-but-maybe-not-quite-great players. If Ron Santo, Gil Hodges and Bert Blyleven were perceived as saintlier, they might be in the Hall right now. On the other hand… given his very-good-but-not-quite-great (in my opinion, anyhow) stats, I wonder: if voters had known then what they know now about Kirby Puckett (once regarded as the finest citizen in the big leagues, it’s now known that he was a creep), would he STILL have been such an overwhelming first-ballot selection? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fu-barry-bonds/295810/98 "2005-04-01T13:55:20Z")
It’s now known that Puckett IS a creep, but did any of this creepy behaviour happen when he was still playing? I was under the impression it seemed to begin after his career ended prematurely due to hi impending blindness, and there was some speculation it was because he wasn’t taking the situation well. But I don’t follow the Twins much. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fu-barry-bonds/295810/99 "2005-04-01T14:45:18Z")
**astorian** is right. True, character and sportsmanship have been used as deciding points by many voters for candidates with marginal numbers. I suspect that’s because very few players, or regular people for that matter, stand out noticeably as either good or bad. Most just do their jobs, work hard, behave themselves in public, support charities like a rich celebrity is expected to, raise their families, and that’s it. Only a few are notably bad actors as human beings, like Bonds, or teammates, like Rice. Only a few go out of their way to work for charities or do humanitarian work out of public view, like Clemente, or perform acts of sportsmanship above and beyond the call, like … um, help me out here, maybe Joe Girardi the day Darryl Kile died. But yes, HOF membership depends mostly on the quantifiable, because how else is a voter going to decide about a normal-person candidate? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fu-barry-bonds/295810.md?page=4)