Fuck 9/11 Observances

I am aware of that. I was pointing out that you seemed to be confused on this subject.

Are you now acknowledging that Japan was capable of starting a war without America making them do so?

Or not?

Not to mention the various US agencies being hesitant to share intelligence with each other

A war is a very different thing than a war with the US. Japan was very reluctant to get into a war with the US during their imperial conquest of Asia and the SWP. The US was a serious impediment to their progress, especially with strategic islands in their way. The oil embargo was a massive problem for them.

And agency does not exist in a vacuum. An active entity does not make choices without reasons, motivations and consideration. The oil embargo was non-trivial motivation.

No, there really is no “not”.

But you’re still ignoring the main point. Roosevelt and the United States wouldn’t have deliberately goaded Japan into a war because they were actively trying to avoid a war with Japan. They were concerned about Germany, which they saw as the main threat to the United States. They did not want to start a separate war with Japan.

As you’ve noted, Japan was a weaker country than the United States overall. The Americans expected the Japanese to understand this and to also seek to avoid starting a war with the United States. They felt that the oil embargo would weaken Japan’s military and force Japan to be reduce its expansionist policies.

Both countries misread the other. The United States was wrong in thinking Japan would back down rather than fight a war which they would eventually lose; Japan decided to declare war on the United States rather than give up its plans for building an empire. And Japan was wrong in thinking that it could achieve a string of early victories and the United States would then give up the war and let Japan do what it wanted; the United States was willing to keep fighting despite early defeats and build up its military and defeat Japan in a longer war. Of the two, Japan’s mistake was the costlier one.

It’s wrong to say America forced Japan to attack Pearl Harbor by imposing the oil embargo. Just like it’s wrong to say Japan forced America to impose the oil embargo by invading Southeast Asia. Both countries had other options. They each have responsibility for the choices they made.

Yeah but too little, too late. When the U.S. threatened to open up the port of Yokohama by force in 1854, mostly feudal Japan was awakened to the fact that it was living in a world dominated by technologically-advanced powers. Japan decided that the way to deal with that threat was to industrialize and become an imperial power, just like the US, UK, and France. None of that justifies the attacks on Pearl Harbor, but really, who cares?

The point is, when we memorialize the war dead, and even our civilian dead, we frequently take away the wrong lessons. We too often fail to ask ourselves the hard questions about our own country’s behavior. Americans have a very simplified ethnocentric of our history, and that has had, and will continue to have, consequences.

Yes, there was a markedly more emotional reaction to the prospect of Ebola coming to the USA in 2014, than there has been to the COVID-19 disease itself.

Of course there has been a VERY emotional reaction to lock-downs, masks, and vaccines. There is probably a sort of inverse relationship between “scariness of a disease” and “reactions to counter-measures.”

my bolding

9/11 led directly to one war, which is finally no longer affecting any Americans. The other war was, as I said, purely a result of American reaction to the 9/11 attacks, not to the attacks themselves. As were all of those other things you mention. Continuing to have “9/11 observances” makes things like those more likely, not less.

That is the myoptimistic outlook. Several years after the US pulled its last people out of Iraq, we were still slightly involved in the war, in which the actions of the US resulted in the creation of Da’esh (Islamic State), and Individual-ONE eventually beat his breast over having taken out their military leadership. In that respect, it seems highly unlikely that we have heard the last from Afghanistan (which has a front of Da’esh, the al Qaeda who were to crazy even for al Qaeda, running about the country).

What would be entirely ironic would be to have Afghanistan’s neighbor take on the Taliban because they are the wrong kind of Muslims, but they never did before, so that is just a fun fantasy.

Just to mention, one of two remaining survivors of the USS Arizona, of Pearl Harbor fame, just turned 100 today. Retired Lt. Cmdr. Lou Conter. Shot down twice over enemy waters and fought off sharks.

The other survivor turned 100 in April, I’ve been told.

Or it might be due to the fact that we have multiple right-wing propaganda networks in the U.S., which are not counterbalanced by anything on the left. They get the rabble worked up over things that they can blame on Democrats and liberals.

Thank you for sharing this. I like to follow these things.

True enough.

Still, politics aside, there were probably more Americans worried about Ebola (what with symptoms such as fountains of liquefied innards pouring out of every orifice) than about COVID-19. (“Not being able to breathe” is also fairly alarming, but possibly not in so graphic a fashion as with Ebola.)

I understand you like to follow these things, but you need to understand the whole history. Otherwise, you’re just gobbling up the jingoism.

How do you think an insurrection happens?

I have 2 degrees in history and I’ve posted on what causes insurrection on the board before. I don’t think we disagree on that. I do like to keep track of the survivors of Pearl Harbor and other significant events. As they pass, we lose a direct connection to our history.

Tell me about your action plan to prevent this loss.


SD said nothing about prevention, just keeping track.

Yes, exactly.

Indeed. What the hell does my aside about a USS Arizona survivor turning 100 have to do with starting insurrections. What “jingoism” is being gobbled up here? I don’t think asahi understood what SD was talking about.

New here are you?



The rare double-murder. And in just four words, too.