# Fuck American Idol **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2005, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-american-idol/288121 "2005-02-03T04:40:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Caricci](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Caricci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caricci)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-american-idol/288121/41 "2005-02-03T19:11:06Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > do they all use that crappy vibrato effect? No, I wouldn’t say so. Kelley’s got a big voice. Fantasia sounds like Macy Gray. Kimberly Locke has a different big voice, but in her hit that’s all over the radio, she’s breathy. No vibrato at all though. ---
**Author:** ![Othersider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cab0a1/32.png) [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-american-idol/288121/42 "2005-02-03T19:46:56Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I find it utterly staggering that anyone would think > > 1. That pop music has ever NOT been about looks, or that > 2. American Idol, which gave us a winner who could swallow Refrigerator Perry whole, and a star who looks like Barry Manilow after being melted, is particularly responsible for making looks more important. > > Who was the biggest star of old time pop 'n rock? Elvis, because he was handsome. The 50s, 60s, and 70s had just as large a proportion of beautiful people in the music industry as today, and we’ve got just as many uggos pushing their way to the top today as we ever did. Eminem’s an ugly little spud and he’s everywhere now. The current #4 song in the USA is a Green Day song, and Green Day are basically three band nerds; I see Maroon 5 with a few singles in the chart right now, and they’re FIVE band nerds. I will agree that pop music has been about appearances, but it didn’t used to be the case that appearance was seemingly the _only_ thing that mattered. I would also disagree a bit with your assessment that the proportion of pretty people, but maybe I’ve just been hearing about it from the wrong people so I could be wrong. I don’t suppose there’s any real criteria by which we could adequately judge the difference. Just for comparison, though, I’d like to mention Michael Jackson. Some might disagree with me, but I don’t think he got his gig based on his looks. He’s a good singer and a good showman. I could see someone like he being turned away by AI. Confirm/deny? > [@featherlou](#): > > I think American Idol being blamed for looks over substance is long after the fact. I would blame the invention of music videos before I would blame AI. I’m 38 years old, and have been into music pretty much since I was born, and I vividly recall how it was to see the bands I’d been listening to for the first time. Definitely. I would say music videos are definitely a scapegoat here - they were probably the first thing giving mass visual exposure to most popular music. Before them, you probably wouldn’t have seen nearly as much of artists - pictures in periodicals, maybe an occasional clip on TV or something, or seeing them live, but I agree that the launch of music videos was the major turning point. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_City\_Maryland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@Ocean\_City\_Maryland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_City_Maryland)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-american-idol/288121/43 "2005-02-03T19:52:40Z")
You guys raised some good points. I like American Idol, I really do. It’s a very enjoyable show. The main problem I have with the show is the total lack of emphasis on songwriting. The US is full of good singers, with good stage presence. It’s a talent to be commended for sure. But for me, the real seperation point, the X factor, is songwriting. Find someone who can sing, who has good stage presence, and writes good songs, now that is a rare talent, and is something which should be sought after. How many songs have the AI winners written? Not many. The Top 40 charts are full of acts that have written their own hits. **Maroon 5, Train, Eminem, John Mayer** , etc. At the very least, they should factor songwriting in when making decisions on who goes and who stays. ---
**Author:** ![AwSnappity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a3d4f5/32.png) [@AwSnappity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AwSnappity)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-american-idol/288121/44 "2005-02-03T20:42:37Z")
> [@Caricci](#): > > Anyway, there was the humpbacked heavy girl that didn’t get in this week,and yeah, she could sing and yeah she wasn’t even as big as Ruben, but she didn’t have that endearing personality Ruben had. She could definitely sing, but I don’t think she was the right style for the competition. She sang a song from _My Fair Lady_ as a general rule, people who sing showtunes don’t usually get sent to Hollywood (of course there are exceptions, the blue-haired _Phantom of the Opera_ girl being one of them). I think if it hadn’t been for her looks, they would have voted no on this principle. I also think that they would have eventually brought it up, but the image issue took center stage. > [@TwistofFate](#): > > do they all use that crappy vibrato effect? Do you mean melisma? I don’t see how just using vibrato makes a song sound ugly, or makes all singers sound the same, unless it’s one of those really ugly car-desperately-trying-to-start vibratos. Which Kelly, Kimberly, and Fantasia don’t have. Melisma is when they sing the improv runs, and a lot of times (on AI at least) contestants use it when they can’t hold a steady note. Did you mean that? Also, FWIW, I agree with **Othersider** ’s assessment that music videos are more to blame. I agree with **yellowval** ’s (and others’) assessment that AI winners are the opposite of what the OP described. And I agree with **An Arky** ’s assessment that the all-looks-no-talent phenomenon is mostly confined to bubblegum pop. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-american-idol/288121/45 "2005-02-03T22:18:14Z")
> [@Ocean City](#): > > The main problem I have with the show is the total lack of emphasis on songwriting. The US is full of good singers, with good stage presence. It’s a talent to be commended for sure. But for me, the real seperation point, the X factor, is songwriting. Find someone who can sing, who has good stage presence, and writes good songs, now that is a rare talent, and is something which should be sought after. > > How many songs have the AI winners written? Not many. > > The Top 40 charts are full of acts that have written their own hits. **Maroon 5, Train, Eminem, John Mayer** , etc. > > At the very least, they should factor songwriting in when making decisions on who goes and who stays. No. 19Entertainment, the producers of the show, are not looking for **a** star; they’re looking for **their** new star. The winner gets a contract with 19E, and will be contractually bound to work with their songwriters. When the contract expires, they are free to write their own songs, but until then, 19E calls the shots. As such, if I were in the competition, I wouldn’t even let them know that I had or could write a song myself. I’m told that people who bring their own instruments to the auditions are turned away. And singing an original song isn’t allowed either; the judges have to be able to evaluate the auditioners strictly on their singing. If they haven’t heard the song, they don’t know if it’s being sung as well as possible, or if the auditioner composed a song that only emphasizes their strengths. If you don’t like the show because of this, then you just don’t. As I said above, **Nashville Star** is the competition for musicians and songwriters. But **AI** is not going to change to accomodate musicians or songwriters. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-american-idol/288121/46 "2005-02-04T00:08:26Z")
> [@AwSnappity](#): > > \Do you mean melisma? I don’t see how just using vibrato makes a song sound ugly, or makes all singers sound the same, unless it’s one of those really ugly car-desperately-trying-to-start vibratos. Which Kelly, Kimberly, and Fantasia don’t have. Melisma is when they sing the improv runs, and a lot of times (on AI at least) contestants use it when they can’t hold a steady note. Did you mean that? > \ I think they mean that unpleasant, bleating-sheep sound like Carmen Rasmussen from season 2 (?). Melisma is that really annoying vocal trick (urban yodelling) that all the Christina Aguilera wannabes are using? That every note must be run up and down like scales? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-american-idol/288121/47 "2005-02-04T01:42:08Z")
> [@Othersider](#): > > I Just for comparison, though, I’d like to mention Michael Jackson. Some might disagree with me, but I don’t think he got his gig based on his looks. He’s a good singer and a good showman. I could see someone like he being turned away by AI. Confirm/deny? Show me someone in the entire history of AI who was turned away despite being able to sing THAT well. (It’s hard to remember sometimes, but Michael Jackson was once a wonderful singer.) Nobody has. Anyone who’s been turned away in part due to “image” was on the fence as a singer anyway. Lots and lots and lots of people have gotten through despite not being much in the looks department, the final 3 of A.I. 2 being the obvious example; Studdard, Aiken, and Locke. You also had Rickey Smith, who showed up looking like your Grade 11 chemistry teacher; Vanessa Olivarez, who was not the world’s prettiest girl and was definitely not the A.I. style; George Huff, who just looked weird; Jon Peter Lewis, who looked like the hobbit too ugly to be Frodo’s friend; and others whose names I can’t remember. No doubt AI goes for style to some extent, but not any more than the music industry always has. I will say, though, that there was a CLEAR shift in emphasis after Season 1. the Season 1 contestants were all boy-and-girl-band-looking. That completely changed, owing in large part to criticism that a lot of them could not sing. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-american-idol/288121/48 "2005-02-04T01:58:26Z")
What always suprises me is that this phenomenon is a surprise to anybody. Of course the industry is big on looks and image–they want to sell a product. Not art. A product. They’re as concerned as McDonald’s is that things look a certain way and have a certain image, regardless of the product’s merit as food. All marketing is driven this way, all commercial products are too, and commerical music (which certianly includes pop music) is no different. Occasionally, some real quality gets through, but that is s incidental at best. Simon does not know shit about music or musical talent; he’s an industry shill with a reasonable eye for people who have the looks and image that fit preconceived notions about the kind of product that the industry wants to promote. Seems cynical? It’s not. It’s the fucking truth. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-american-idol/288121/49 "2005-02-04T01:58:50Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > Here’s Billboard’s top 200 from 15 years ago (just because it was easily accessible; not sure how to find other years): > > [http://www.billboard.com/bb/charts/ago/rewind.jsp?which=bb200&REWIND\_YEAR=15](http://www.billboard.com/bb/charts/ago/rewind.jsp?which=bb200&REWIND_YEAR=15) Dunno what you’re getting there, but when I click on that link I’m getting last year’s charts. [sub]The B-52’s made it on good looks? Who knew?[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![AwSnappity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a3d4f5/32.png) [@AwSnappity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AwSnappity)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-american-idol/288121/50 "2005-02-04T02:24:18Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > And singing an original song isn’t allowed either; the judges have to be able to evaluate the auditioners strictly on their singing. If they haven’t heard the song, they don’t know if it’s being sung as well as possible, or if the auditioner composed a song that only emphasizes their strengths. Is this new? Last season Scooter Girl sang a song that she made up about (surprise) her scooter. And it was really stupid, too, involving the name game (scooter scooter bo booter…). And she made it through to the next level. I’m not doubting you or anything, I was just curious. **featherlou** : that’s precisely it. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-american-idol/288121/51 "2005-02-04T02:47:16Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Show me someone in the entire history of AI who was turned away despite being able to sing THAT well. (It’s hard to remember sometimes, but Michael Jackson was once a wonderful singer.) It’s equally difficult to imagine, but equally true, that MJ was once a good-looking black guy. (Even before the first nose job.) > [@](#): > > George Huff, who just looked weird I’m not sure what you mean by that. At Huff’s audition, he had a mustache and sang in a husky James Ingram style. Somewhere along the line, I forget exactly when, they convinced him to lose the mustache because he looked “too old”. He also started acting younger and goonier. Never thought he looked weird, though. **AwSnappity** , they’ve tightened the rules somewhat since last season. Scooter Girl deliberately sang badly at her preliminary audition, hoping to get in as a potential best-of-the-worst. The scooter and the hyper demeanor were also part of the schtick. Since then, the producers have decreed that anyone who sings badly during the preliminaries and then busts out with quality singing in front of the Big Three will be disqualified. I still don’t know, though I’m sure we’ll find out eventually, why they broadcast Chris Noll/Wylde’s audition even though he a) did an extemporaneous rap number and b) was a professional pretending not to be. But it was the kind of WTF moment they like to show at this stage of the competition. Point is, I think there’s a distinction between a novelty song and a serious attempt at songwriting. If you’re really talented at songwriting, there are better venues than AI. They’re not looking to nurture songwriters, just singers. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-american-idol/288121/52 "2005-02-04T15:49:40Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You haven’t even watched the show? given I live in another country to you, and only get to see the show irregularly about 2 months after you, all I ever see are the auditions and all the women that simon and the big fella let through are women who use big shouty fake vibrato. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-american-idol/288121/53 "2005-02-04T16:18:43Z")
I’ve put a name to my pain - melisma. I hate melisma. And the hand going along with it…just about enough to drive me out of my tree. (I hate the big shouty fake vibrato, too {just about typed “vibrator” there - nobody wants a big shouty fake vibrator}. I like _good_ singing.) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-american-idol/288121/54 "2005-02-04T17:49:50Z")
God, I _loathe_ the hand movements. Is there anything more pretentious? ---
**Author:** ![Windwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5e9695/32.png) [@Windwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Windwalker)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-american-idol/288121/55 "2005-02-04T18:04:04Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > God, I _loathe_ the hand movements. Is there anything more pretentious? But don’t you get it? They’re being _passionate_ for chrissakes! That, or Italian. Buongiorno, principessa! ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-american-idol/288121/56 "2005-02-05T05:24:37Z")
> [@Windwalker](#): > > But don’t you get it? They’re being _passionate_ for chrissakes! That, or Italian. Buongiorno, principessa! That reminds me of watching Jessica Simpson sing. Oh my goodness, what a spaz. Talk about making it on a lotta looks and not a lotta talent. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-american-idol/288121/57 "2005-02-05T09:53:52Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > What always suprises me is that this phenomenon is a surprise to anybody. Of course the industry is big on looks and image–they want to sell a product. > > Not art. A product. And not music or entertainment either. Nothing intended to be used or enjoyed. Only to be marketed and sold. THIS is how it’s different from back in the day. The marketplace was never a paradise for artists, but at least there was some desire to create something people would enjoy. We’re way past that now. It’s marketers marketing to marketers. > [@](#): > > They’re as concerned as McDonald’s is that things look a certain way and have a certain image, regardless of the product’s merit as food. All marketing is driven this way, all commercial products are too, and commerical music (which certianly includes pop music) is no different. Occasionally, some real quality gets through, but that is s incidental at best. > [@](#): > > Simon does not know shit about music or musical talent; he’s an industry shill with a reasonable eye for people who have the looks and image that fit preconceived notions about the kind of product that the industry wants to promote. Note once again: nothing about music that listeners might want to listen to. Heard of “victimless crime”? This is a userless product. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-american-idol/288121.md?page=2)