# Fuck Coal. It's Time Has Passed **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 16, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891 "2016-12-16T22:19:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ZurBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/71e660/32.png) [@ZurBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZurBob)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891/21 "2016-12-17T06:25:32Z")
> [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](#): > > Coal miners and their families voted overwhelmingly to go back into the mines, suppress their union, roll back safety regulations, and deny themselves healthcare, and against the promise of employment in cleaner industries that won’t kill them sooner, and everyone else later. In short, they committed suicide just to satisfy their bigotry against immigrants, nonwhites, nonchristians, LGBTQ persons, and independent women. I’d rather they did not have their preference, but if they get their way, let them have the whole of it. > [@sinjin](#): > > Maybe their kids will be smarter. They are the ones who voted against unions and against EPA and against OSHA and against ACA. They want the damn guvment out of their lives. I say we give them what they asked for. Well, yes. But contrary to all the social issues you point out, the first priority on their behalf is making a living **today** in order to keep **alive** tomorrow. It’s easy to cast aspersions when one has options in life that others do not… Coal is the only work some Appalachians have known for generations. Your smug observations have a ring of truth… But they are cruel in nature. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891/22 "2016-12-17T08:10:22Z")
> [@ZurBob](#): > > It’s easy to cast aspersions when one has options in life that others do not… Coal is the only work some Appalachians have known for generations. I have some sympathy for a person whose livelihood is left behind by changing times, but it doesn’t extend to multiple generations. It can be hard for someone to find a new line of work when they’ve only known one. But just because dad worked in the mines doesn’t mean his sons have to. You’re starting from scratch; study, learn about the world, and if you have to, go someplace with industries with a future and that won’t kill you. I hope that all those coal miners who worried about their jobs going away soon have encouraged their kids not to follow in their footsteps. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891/23 "2016-12-17T08:59:07Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Even if coal isn’t economically viable anymore, we do still owe them jobs. It’s the capitalist way. No, that’s the socialist way. The capitalist way, upon which some of them voted, leaves them fucked for life. > [@OldOlds](#): > > 1. I can’t believe I used the contraction for the possessive Its in the title. I shall now write lengthy self criticisms and prostrate myself before the village Go, and sin no more. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891/24 "2016-12-17T14:28:19Z")
Not only are the coal jobs in Appalachia not coming back, now the republicans that these people voted for are trying to take away the pensions and health care of coal miners. Don’t worry, people like Joe Manchin are up for re-election in 2018 and I’m sure he will be replaced by a republican who fights to take away their health care and pensions. > **[Democrats Rip GOP As Coal Miners Prepare To Lose Health Coverage](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/democrats-congress-coal-miners-heath-benefits_n_5849db0ee4b0bd9c3dfbec52)** > > Donald Trump hasn't said a word. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891/25 "2016-12-17T16:01:44Z")
Originally Posted by running coach View Post Isn’t coal critical to making steel? . . . > [@Trinopus](#): > > You need a gob-ton of heat, but coal isn’t the only super-hot burning fuel. If you absolutely had to, you could do it with charcoal, or natural gas, or even an unshielded atomic pile… :eek: So called metallurgical coal isn’t just a heat source for the production of steel ‘from scratch’, using iron ore, it’s part of the chemical process. However a large and growing % of US steel production is from scrap not from ore and that doesn’t use coal, nor methods where partly processed iron ore is imported. And obviously US steel makers don’t have an absolute lock on the market for finished steel in the US either. Metallurgical coal is a pretty small % of US total production but it’s around 2/3’s of US coal exports now, and around 1/3 of production in Appalachia where a disproportionate number of coal jobs remain. For example Campbell County WY alone produces over 1/3 of all US coal with mines employing less than 5,000 people, though they support many other jobs indirectly, and it’s been tough times there lately as well. That type of coal isn’t used at all in steel making. But in general the US _political_ issue of coal is _US govt policies_ which reduce the demand for coal beyond the effect of strictly market factors like lower natural gas prices. Those might be the right policies overall, but it isn’t irrational for people in coal dependent areas to focus on those policies and oppose them. It would be irrational for them to focus their anger on eg. technology that has boosted US gas production. And as for ‘coal’s time has passed’ in general, US and China each produced around 1 billion tons a year 15 or so years ago. US production for 2016 will be significantly below 1 bil for the first time in a while, China’s is now almost 4 bil. So it’s time hasn’t passed yet. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891/26 "2016-12-17T16:43:00Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > Interestingly, I tried to look at how much coal is needed for steel production (relative to total), annually, and the numbers I found were so all over the map I have no idea There doesn’t seem to be a single easily accessible figure for US domestic metallurgical coal consumption. But you can ballpark it as follows. Per World Steel Association it averages 0.8 tons of metallurgical coal per ton of steel in an integrated steel mill. Using 2014 wiki figures of 117 mil iron/steel production, 31% from integrated mills (the rest is so called mini mills which use scrap and various miscellaneous production processes which don’t use coal), domestic met coal consumption would have been around 29 mil tons. Met coal exports, which the EIA does track and report, were 26mil tons in 2015 and total US coal production 897mil. So it’s well under 10% of total, but again significantly more important in Appalachia where the bulk of US met coal comes from and where mining is most labor intensive. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891/27 "2016-12-17T19:09:04Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > . . . So called metallurgical coal isn’t just a heat source for the production of steel ‘from scratch’, using iron ore, it’s part of the chemical process. . . . By Edgar’s Sword, I didn’t know that. I thought it was just for heat. Ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891/28 "2016-12-17T19:13:01Z")
> [@ZurBob](#): > > Well, yes. > > But contrary to all the social issues you point out, the first priority on their behalf is making a living **today** in order to keep **alive** tomorrow. > > It’s easy to cast aspersions when one has options in life that others do not… Coal is the only work some Appalachians have known for generations. > > Your smug observations have a ring of truth… But they are cruel in nature. Yep. I imagine a thread around this forum where folks here talk about problems in the “hood” regarding violence, crappy schools, poor nutrition, lack of job opportunities blah blah blah… And somebody comes along and says “well, they need to get their shit together and/or move out”. Yeah, THAT would get lots of laughs and high fives around here… ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891/29 "2016-12-17T19:29:56Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Yep. > > I imagine a thread around this forum where folks here talk about problems in the “hood” regarding violence, crappy schools, poor nutrition, lack of job opportunities blah blah blah… > > And somebody comes along and says “well, they need to get their shit together and/or move out”. > > Yeah, THAT would get lots of laughs and high fives around here… But how are those the same thing? The time of cities or neighborhoods hasn’t past. Technology isn’t putting us all into sealed pods where those who make the transition do well and others are left behind. In fact, we’re seeing a renaissance in cities. There may be some government policies weighing down on coal. But surface mining is displacing underground: [https://www.google.com/search?q=coal+output+over+time&rlz=1C1CHBF\_enUS717US717&biw=1536&bih=759&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjV\_d\_L-fvQAhUK3YMKHbu2DbsQ\_AUIBygC#imgrc=50o4oYuLurHv0M%3A](https://www.google.com/search?q=coal+output+over+time&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS717US717&biw=1536&bih=759&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjV_d_L-fvQAhUK3YMKHbu2DbsQ_AUIBygC#imgrc=50o4oYuLurHv0M%3A) Coal employment has been dropping since the 1920s > **[Coal mining in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_mining_in_the_United_States#/media/File:US_Coal_Mining_Employment_1890-2014.png)** > > Coal mining is an industry in transition in the United States. Production in 2019 was down 40% from the peak production of 1,171.8 million short tons (1,063 million metric tons) in 2008. Employment of 43,000 coal miners is down from a peak of 883,000 in 1923. Generation of electricity is the largest user of coal, being used to produce 50% of electric power in 2005 and 27% in 2018. The U.S. is a net exporter of coal. U.S. coal exports, for which Europe is the largest customer, peaked in 20 Ac... (Hmmm… There’s that technology taking jobs thing; Surely there weren’t a lot of anti-coal policies in the 50s) And finally, the domestic natural gas boom is real [https://www.google.com/search?q=domestic+natural+resources&rlz=1C1CHBF\_enUS717US717&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVsbq3-vvQAhVqI8AKHbvkBWcQ\_AUICSgC&biw=1536&bih=759#tbm=isch&q=domestic+natural+gas+output&imgrc=5MuNwceQDfqiYM%3A](https://www.google.com/search?q=domestic+natural+resources&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS717US717&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVsbq3-vvQAhVqI8AKHbvkBWcQ_AUICSgC&biw=1536&bih=759#tbm=isch&q=domestic+natural+gas+output&imgrc=5MuNwceQDfqiYM%3A) So to shed a tear for the generations who’ve known nothing else is kind of you, the fact is that there’s been lots of warning that this was coming. The natural gas boom is probably going to accelerate it, but I do believe a lot of this is pride in the face of a harsh reality. Unless someone wants to suggest that we should enact policies to favor coal, like taxes on natural gas? But that seems silly to me. So how is this the same as saying we should just empty shitty neighborhoods? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891/30 "2016-12-17T19:37:24Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > So to shed a tear for the generations who’ve known nothing else is kind of you, the fact is that there’s been lots of warning that this was coming. The natural gas boom is probably going to accelerate it, but I do believe a lot of this is pride in the face of a harsh reality. Unless someone wants to suggest that we should enact policies to favor coal, like taxes on natural gas? But that seems silly to me. > > So how is this the same as saying we should just empty shitty neighborhoods? And poor people in the hood with shitty schools and no job opportunities haven’t figured it out and move out either? ---
**Author:** ![pmwgreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@pmwgreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pmwgreen)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891/31 "2016-12-17T19:44:10Z")
Whether coal has been passed by or not, the job of a coal miner is largely replaced by automation. Those guys need new jobs. Software is a good job. I used to work with a bunch of Russians and a crowd of black-lung sufferers would fit right in. Or how about jobs in the complaints division of Trump Enterprises? ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891/32 "2016-12-17T19:48:17Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And poor people in the hood with shitty schools and no job opportunities haven’t figured it out and move out either? What? No. I am saying that because they are different things, the response should be different. I believe in the power of government and society to do right by its people. So what I would say is this In the case of the city, there is no fundamental reason it can’t be fixed. School systems are government organs, and have a responsibility to perform at a certain level. Its should be possible through smart policing and education, as well as substance abuse programs and community centers to address the crime- don’t get bogged down on whether these specific responses are the right ones, just that we can do things to improve the cities, and we should do so (read: spend the money). In the case of an industry (and by extension in some cases a region) being left behind by the forces of change, the response has to be different. Nothing reasonable the government can do will protect and return coal. Prohibit low-labor techniques? Mandate a certain % of electricity be generated by coal? Build a nationalized coal company and mine just as a jobs program? If there are industries that want to relocate to these mining towns, great. But we can’t force them to. So if there aren’t takers, then what? In the case of cities, there are simply more and more diverse employment opportunities. The analogy falls down. And I am not opposed to helping these people, but it sometimes seems like they will only accept help if it means more mining jobs. Well, know what? I’m not going to work unless I get paid in grape flavored unicorn poop. How’s that going to work out? -Education -Relocation assistance -Attract new industry (if possible; but probably requires education anyway) Or, wait for unicorn poop ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891/33 "2016-12-17T20:25:57Z")
If the coal is depleted in WVA, there are huge deposits in remote Alaska just waiting for some mega-corp to destroy the landscape to get to it. Of course, a rail line would have to be built to get it to the coast, but hey: more jobs! Folks could not only die of black lung but have frostbite damage and lose limbs to freezing. Fun! Being that remote would mean no families, but it’s worth it just to have a job, right? ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891/34 "2016-12-17T22:01:08Z")
Whoa. Being trapped in a collapsed Alaskan coal mine at 20 degrees below zero would be simply _awesome_. Forget having to eat my fellow miners to stay alive; I’d be setting 'em on fire to stay warm. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891/35 "2016-12-17T22:37:26Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > Whoa. Being trapped in a collapsed Alaskan coal mine at 20 degrees below zero would be simply _awesome_. > > Forget having to eat my fellow miners to stay alive; I’d be setting 'em on fire to stay warm. Maybe genetic engineering will reach the point where Taun-Tauns can be produced. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891/36 "2016-12-17T23:31:10Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Maybe genetic engineering will reach the point where Taun-Tauns can be produced. Wait a second. How deep are these Alaskan mines? It might be quite nice down there > **[Geothermal gradient](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_gradient)** > > Geothermal gradient is the rate of change in temperature with respect to increasing depth in Earth's interior. As a general rule, the crust temperature rises with depth due to the heat flow from the much hotter mantle; away from tectonic plate boundaries, temperature rises in about 25–30 °C/km (72–87 °F/mi) of depth near the surface in the continental crust. However, in some cases the temperature may drop with increasing depth, especially near the surface, a phenomenon known as inverse or nega St... ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891/37 "2016-12-17T23:59:50Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And poor people in the hood with shitty schools and no job opportunities haven’t figured it out and move out either? Well, if they live in cities with good transit systems they can get to better jobs. Houston’s Magnet Schools provide good educations–and students ride Metro free. Alas, there aren’t enough Magnet Schools to go around–because there isn’t enough funding. But we’re told not to “throw money at” education. And not to fund transit, either. Tom “I can’t believe he’s not in prison” DeLay prevented funding Houston transit for years. He’s gone & things are improving. Just not so much way out in Sugarland–which kept electing him. Trapped out there next to the coal mine, if you don’t want to leave–start cooking meth. Moonshine is so old fashioned! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891/38 "2016-12-18T09:35:31Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > Forget having to eat my fellow miners to stay alive; I’d be setting 'em on fire to stay warm. You realize you’d be in a _coal_ mine, yes? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891/39 "2016-12-18T16:22:59Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Ever see the solidified Evil from _Time Bandits?_ It looks like coal and it’s pure Evil; they’d love it, it’s a combination of their two favorite things. And symbolically perfect. I thought I was the only one stupid enough to admit having watched that movie … maybe I’m the only one stupid enough to admit I enjoyed it … meh … Iron oxide reduces in the presence of carbon monoxide … coked coal is great for this because coal partially oxidizes at a temperature far below the melting point of iron, and we don’t have any extra hydrogen that would come from natural gas/other hydrocarbons … however this can be completely ignored as a contribution to carbon pollution compared to making cement … What moron thinks natural gas is a good alternative to coal … even this climate change denialist knows that’s the stupidest idea the industry ever convinced the public was true … when New York City, London, Tokyo all go underwater all the extra energy per gigaton of CO[sub]2[/sub] won’t matter … and neither will the exact same temperate climate matter … it’ll be Federally protected wetlands instead of the trillions of dollars in real estate assets … We’re poisoning our atmosphere … and it doesn’t matter which poison we choose … Phaw … I guess my only point here is that we rely on domestically produced coal so we don’t have to provide the Saudi royal family with as much oral sex as we used to … because it sucks to have to wait three hours in line for 5 gallons of gasoline when Kissinger had to have dental surgery … ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891/40 "2016-12-18T17:10:05Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > Look, I am sorry that you come from a long line of coal miners. Really. I know it’s part of your identity. But it’s over. The world is leaving it behind, and now comes word that black lung is massively on the rise (or previously under reported) > [Advanced Black Lung Cases Surge In Appalachia : NPR](http://www.npr.org/2016/12/15/505577680/advanced-black-lung-cases-surge-in-appalachia) > > Look, I am trying really hard to avoid the buggy whip comment. But we now have much better options with increased access to natural gas. Where we do use coal, the open drag mines in TX and MT are much cheaper and safer (if not more environmentally friendly). And, of course, coal is filthy. > > Stop telling me that your pride (and inaction, and inertia) means that we owe you a mining job. We (society) don’t. It’s time for the next thing, and Donald Trump can’t change that and I don’t want to. Coal is superior to natural gas in only one dimension that I can think of, it is easier to transport without expensive infrastructure. But this can be important enough that it trumps the advantages of natural gas in some cases. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-coal-its-time-has-passed/774891.md?page=3)