# Fuck Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 27, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867 "2008-12-27T19:30:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/181 "2008-12-28T03:25:02Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > No, not “legal”. The international community recognizes the existence of Israel as legitimate. Hamas doesn’t. Hamas claims both the occupied territories and the land that’s internationally recognized as Israeli territory. I’m talking about the illegal Israeli settlements on Palestinian territory. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/182 "2008-12-28T03:35:27Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Israel has the same problem in thinking its enititled to Palesitinian territories. Israel could easily take the entire non-Jewish population in the area and put it to the sword or expel it. And yet it has not done so. > [@](#): > > The same could be said about the Palestinians. Not so. As noted above, Israel could easily put an end to the Palestinian presence in the area. > [@](#): > > There are people in this thread advocating the literal, genocidal extinction of all Palestinian people. Who? ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/183 "2008-12-28T03:38:37Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > There, fixed that for you to accurately reflect the situation. **Mod note: Weirddave** , you modified this quote by **Diogenes the Cynic** : > [@](#): > > If a bad guy takes a shot at you and misses, do you then have the right to kill his children and his neighbors and his neighbors’ children? … to read: > [@](#): > > If a bad guy takes a shot at you and misses, AND CONTINUES TO SHOOT AT YOU do you then have the right to kill his children and his neighbors and his neighbors’ children? Pit rules state, “Do not change the attributed quotes of other posters or off-board citations beyond fair usage standards.” Your change materially alters the meaning of the quote, and is not excused by saying “fixed that for you.” Don’t do this again. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/184 "2008-12-28T03:44:07Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Israel could easily take the entire non-Jewish population in the area and put it to the sword or expel it. And yet it has not done so. > > Not so. As noted above, Israel could easily put an end to the Palestinian presence in the area… Untrue. In fact Israel is displacing Palestinians at the fastest pace practicable. As often noted, when the US says tut tut, that’s when there’s a a temporary respite. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/185 "2008-12-28T03:46:38Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Israel could easily take the entire non-Jewish population in the area and put it to the sword or expel it. And yet it has not done so. Fear of international reprisals, most likely. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/186 "2008-12-28T03:48:45Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Who? See the very first reply in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/187 "2008-12-28T03:52:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > See the very first reply in this thread. Since the thread title is “Fuck Hamas,” I took “them” in that first reply to mean Hamas, not the Palestinians as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/188 "2008-12-28T03:53:56Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > For some reason, I think it’s been US gov’t policy to wring our hands and whisper, “Now, play nice.” What I don’t understand is why Israel doesn’t tell us “Screw you” and do what they need to do. Because we’re the ones paying their bills. ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/189 "2008-12-28T04:08:57Z")
> [@Struan](#): > > Fuck off and die you witless man-child. \*\*Mod note: Struan, \*\* Pit rules state, “Do not threaten another poster with physical harm, or wish for their demise.” Don’t do this again. ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/190 "2008-12-28T04:14:47Z")
> [@Struan](#): > > Fuck off and die you witless man-child. \*\*Mod note: Struan, \*\* Pit rules state, “Do not threaten another poster with physical harm, or wish for their demise.” Don’t do this again. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/191 "2008-12-28T04:29:33Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What makes you think Israel would give a shit about Palestinian children? What makes you think Hamas gives a shit about Israeli children? You’re a fucking joke dude. I completely realize that there are two sides to this story and that there are atrocities on both sides, but you apparently are taking sides with Hamas, along with your good buddy \*\*Der Duh \*\*in a lame attempt to handwave away the fact that Israel only RETALIATES! They don’t INITIATE. Retaliate! Irregardless of the proportionality, if Hamas would stop launching artillery into Israel, these RETALIATIONS would stop! Jesus you guys are fucking dense! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/192 "2008-12-28T04:42:04Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > What makes you think Hamas gives a shit about Israeli children? I never said they did, asshole. Why don’t you actually read the question I was answering? ETA retaliation isn’t the problem. Proportion is the problem. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/193 "2008-12-28T04:46:34Z")
A rocket for a rocket then directed at civilians is ok then ? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/194 "2008-12-28T04:58:33Z")
Proportion? So you’d prefer a policy where Israel randomly fired rockets and shells over into Gaza? Say, one rocket for every Palestinian rocket, one mortar shell for every Palestinian mortar shell? Maybe a guided missile for every suicide bomber? If Hamas targets a marketplace, Israel should target a market place… You don’t mean “proportionate” at all, do you? What do you mean? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/195 "2008-12-28T05:05:44Z")
I’d prefer a policy where Israel doesn’t use any slight, bullshit excuse to slaughter civilians. I’d also prefer not to pay the bills for them. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/196 "2008-12-28T05:31:30Z")
Oh please, **Dio**. You know for a fact that if Minneapolis-St. Paul had come under continuous rocket attacks from Canada, Washington would have been sending B-52s north of the border - and you’d be adding an extra zero or two to the end of the casualty numbers you’re seeing in Gaza. Americans have slaughtered many more for much, much less. Hell, you’ve killed more Arab civilians in the past five years than we have in the past century, and we, at least, have been defending ourselves. Anyway, the little discussion you and others held while I was sleeping was interesting but ultimately irrelevant. Yes, what you said was correct - as it applies to individuals. However, the\* laws of individuals do not apply to the affairs of nations\*. A nation doesn’t care about innocent or guilty. All a nation cases about is this: Was there sufficient casus belli? And if so, was our response in violation of the Rules of Law? In the case at hand, the answer for the first (backed by thousands of years of precedence) is “yes”; the answer to the second is “no”. Despite what you’d want to believe killing civilians as part of a legitimate military action is not a violation of the Geneva Conventions or any other treaty - targeting them is, and targeting civilians is what Hamas is doing, not Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/197 "2008-12-28T05:38:24Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And if so, was our response in violation of the Rules of Law? In the case at hand, the answer for the first (backed by thousands of years of precedence) is “yes”; the answer to the second is “no”. Despite what you’d want to believe killing civilians as part of a legitimate military action is not a violation of the Geneva Conventions or any other treaty - targeting them is, and targeting civilians is what Hamas is doing, not Israel. This is the way it’s been done for “thousands of years” as you say. But does that make it _right_? Wouldn’t it be nice to break the cycle of violence? Break through your conditioning, Alessan. Be different. There are no israelis. There are no palestianians. All those little borders and nationalities are just shit we’ve made up. They’ve human beings, just like you and me. Flesh and blood human beings. They feel pain just like you and I do. An innocent Palestianian life lost is just as bad as an Israeli life lost. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/198 "2008-12-28T05:44:19Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Break through your conditioning, Alessan. Be different Wouldn’t that require the free will you frequently claim doesn’t exist? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/199 "2008-12-28T05:45:39Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > Wouldn’t that require the free will you frequently claim doesn’t exist? :dubious: For some reason I like tilting at windmills. But I can’t help being the way I am. :smack: Basically what this “Us vs Them” bullshit boils down to is this: The lives of people born under an arbitrary imaginary line are worth less than the people born under OUR imaginary arbitrary line. That’s the bottom line. I wish people would see through the bullshit. They probably won’t though. It’s tough for some anonymous dude on a message board to counteract 20+ years of being raised to hate other people. But I feel compelled to try nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/200 "2008-12-28T05:56:48Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > This is the way it’s been done for “thousands of years” as you say. But does that make it _right_? Wouldn’t it be nice to break the cycle of violence? Break through your conditioning, Alessan. Be different. > > There are no israelis. There are no palestianians. All those little borders and nationalities are just shit we’ve made up. They’ve human beings, just like you and me. Flesh and blood human beings. They feel pain just like you and I do. An innocent Palestianian life lost is just as bad as an Israeli life lost. How about you tell the Palestinians that? Because so long as someone wants to kill me, drive me from my home or take my property because of ehat they see as my nationality, I’m going to stick together with others who are seen the same way. It’s simple logic - strength in numbers. United we stand, divided we fall. If we don’t look after each other, no-one will. I’d like to be a citizen of the world, but I don’t believe the world cares about me. In a way, nationalism is a lot like a military- it would be best if no-one had it, but so long as \*someone \*has it, everyone has to have it, because those who don’t are toast. And for the recond, I don’t hate anyone. Hate is a useless, wasteful emotion. Hate makes you weak. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=11)