# Fuck Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 27, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867 "2008-12-27T19:30:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/381 "2008-12-29T18:04:49Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Frankly, I’m not surprised that DtC is weaseling, for him to do what he proposed would be suicide. Hey-hey-hey! _I’m_ the one who proposed it, though it was just to illustrate that for all his blather about moral equivalence, it’s far safer to protest the Knesset’s actions than Hamas’s. He sufficiently hates Israel, though, that he’s engaged in a stubborn Bush-like denial of reality, much like Sevastapol. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/382 "2008-12-29T18:07:09Z")
> [@weirddave](#): > > ]I just so happen to think that America would be a much better place without Dio in it I’ve served my country. Have you? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/383 "2008-12-29T18:09:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Hey-hey-hey! _I’m_ the one who proposed it, though it was just to illustrate that for all his blather about moral equivalence, it’s far safer to protest the Knesset’s actions than Hamas’s. He sufficiently hates Israel, though, that he’s engaged in a stubborn Bush-like denial of reality, much like Sevastapol. I don’t hate Israel. Accusing me of that is just as stupid as accusing people of hating America if they oppose what the government does. I strongly disagree with Israel’s disproportionate responses to Hamas. I don’t think they can achieve peace by killing innocent people. It’s just that simple. That doesn’t mean I hate Israel or think it shouldn’t exist. And what difference does it make what it’s safer to protest? How does that make it ok to kill children? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/384 "2008-12-29T18:21:48Z")
Without jumping in on the “disproportionate response” side of this debate, does anyone on the other side actually think that a proportionate response would do anything to end the conflict? Should Israel start lobbing unsophisticated rockets indiscriminately into Gaza at the same frequency that Hamas is lobbing them into Israel? Given the way Hamas operates, I don’t see how it is possible to avoid civilian casualties with any type of armed response. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/385 "2008-12-29T18:27:10Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > At the same time, I expect you to create a great big sign in Arabic saying “Killing Israeli Children is Wrong” and march up and down in front of whatever Hamas is using as an HQ now. Frankly, I doubt that the IDF would allow you to do it, but I’ll work hard to convince them to allow you. Are you willing to bet your life, and your wife and kid’s chances of having a husband and father on that? I’ll bet my wife and kids AND MY LIFE on Israel allowing me to demonstrate, will you do the same with Hamas? I am completely serious with this offer, will you take me up on it? I have no dog in this fight (I’m more of the “kill them all; God will know his own”) school), but I’d happily go in dtC’s place. I could use a free vacation right about now. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/386 "2008-12-29T18:31:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t hate Israel. Coulda fooled me, Jack. > [@](#): > > And what difference does it make what it’s safer to protest? How does that make it ok to kill children? Nothing. It was a statement on the attempt to draw moral equivalence between the conflicting sides. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/387 "2008-12-29T18:38:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Without jumping in on the “disproportionate response” side of this debate, does anyone on the other side actually think that a proportionate response would do anything to end the conflict? Should Israel start lobbing unsophisticated rockets indiscriminately into Gaza at the same frequency that Hamas is lobbing them into Israel? Given the way Hamas operates, I don’t see how it is possible to avoid civilian casualties with any type of armed response. So a ghettoized population in Palestine with little food and medicine,and people dying every day day should do what? What is a proper response for the mistreatment that they experience? How do you react to a life of checkpoints and being treated like vermin? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/388 "2008-12-29T18:39:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Without jumping in on the “disproportionate response” side of this debate, does anyone on the other side actually think that a proportionate response would do anything to end the conflict? Should Israel start lobbing unsophisticated rockets indiscriminately into Gaza at the same frequency that Hamas is lobbing them into Israel? Given the way Hamas operates, I don’t see how it is possible to avoid civilian casualties with any type of armed response. The same frequency? Israel has already killed three times as many civilans in the last three days as Hamas has killed in the last eight years. Killing civilians with the same frequency as Hamas would be a huge step DOWN. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/389 "2008-12-29T18:41:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Without jumping in on the “disproportionate response” side of this debate, does anyone on the other side actually think that a proportionate response would do anything to end the conflict? Should Israel start lobbing unsophisticated rockets indiscriminately into Gaza at the same frequency that Hamas is lobbing them into Israel? Given the way Hamas operates, I don’t see how it is possible to avoid civilian casualties with any type of armed response. And the crux of the matter is that Hamas knows this, and it is the mode of operation to commit these attacks, hide behind civilians, and then trumpet the blood of those now dead civilians to play the martyr. I agree with the OP. Fuck Hamas. If Israel pushed them into the sea, the world would be better off for it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/390 "2008-12-29T18:41:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Nothing. It was a statement on the attempt to draw moral equivalence between the conflicting sides. Are saying there’s a moral _difference_? Are Israeli children more innocent than Palestinian children? ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/391 "2008-12-29T18:41:42Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > A government is still a body of people. In one sense, yes. But it would be nice if we could trust them not to act as a mob. > [@](#): > > You don’t want person-to-person analogies, fine. Whether or not you approve of the bombs that fell on Japan, I don’t think you can deny that they sure as hell ended that conflict on the international scale. Actually yes I could. Japan was finished anyway. The shock of the bombs hastened the process but did not end it on their own. It was kicking a dead dog. **Alessan** asked earlier what was the virtue of a proportional response. I presume by his phrasing that he knows the West Wing answer. It’s fairly valid. They are what civilised countries do. And they don’t lead to interesting debacles like the war in Iraq. ETA [QUOTE=John Mace] Should Israel start lobbing unsophisticated rockets indiscriminately into Gaza at the same frequency that Hamas is lobbing them into Israel? [/QUOTE] No, they should try and negotiate and compromise. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/392 "2008-12-29T18:44:00Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > And the crux of the matter is that Hamas knows this, and it is the mode of operation to commit these attacks, hide behind civilians, and then trumpet the blood of those now dead civilians to play the martyr. Israel doesn’t actually HAVE to kill civilians, you know. You can’t just absolve them of responsibility that easily. And nobody plays the martyr role better than Israel, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/393 "2008-12-29T18:45:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The same frequency? Israel has already killed three times as many civilans in the last three days as Hamas has killed in the last eight years. Killing civilians with the same frequency as Hamas would be a huge step DOWN. That’s a rant, not an answer to the question. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/394 "2008-12-29T18:47:19Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > So a ghettoized population in Palestine with little food and medicine,and people dying every day day should do what? What is a proper response for the mistreatment that they experience? How do you react to a life of checkpoints and being treated like vermin? If the Pals do not want to be treated like vermin, maybe they should stop acting like vermin. Israel isn’t attacking Gaza for shits n’ giggles; it is responding to indiscriminate attacks on its own population. Mind, I’m no fan of Israel; I’m tired of propping them up financially without getting any ROI. But the Pals are incapable of running a country. The Palestinian government is insanely corrupt and inefficient, and the Pal leadership is content to keep its population focused on killing Israelis to distract them from demanding competent leadership. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/395 "2008-12-29T18:51:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Israel doesn’t actually HAVE to kill civilians, you know. You can’t just absolve them of responsibility that easily. > > And nobody plays the martyr role better than Israel, by the way. Israel wants the violence to end and has offered the PAas deal after deal for decades. In return the Pal leadership continues to amp up their people’s desire for the ertermination of Israel and its people. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/396 "2008-12-29T18:51:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s a rant, not an answer to the question. Your question was, “Should Israel start lobbing unsophisticated rockets indiscriminately into Gaza at the same frequency that Hamas is lobbing them into Israel?” The answer is that they’re already bombing with far more efficiency and much higher civilian casualties. To your precise question “_should_ they,” the answer is still no, but that it would still be an improvement over what they’re doing now. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/397 "2008-12-29T18:54:39Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Israel wants the violence to end and has offered the PAas deal after deal for decades. In return the Pal leadership continues to amp up their people’s desire for the ertermination of Israel and its people. Israel does not have the best record of holding up its end of the deal. The Palestinians have no reason to trust that Israel is negotiating in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![Grey\_area](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Grey\_area](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey_area)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/398 "2008-12-29T18:55:50Z")
I don’t know what Israel is hoping to achieve with their retaliation beyond cold blooded (not to mention hugely disproportionate) revenge. This is only going breed more support for Hamas because they’re giving more and more reasons to hate Israel. I don’t think the average Palestinian (or the average anyone in a 3rd world country with shoddy education along with all the other joys of poverty) is going fully appreciate that Hamas is an extremist nutso organization. I think he’s more likely to notice that his city is fucked and his uncle is dead. Beat Palestine into submission? Yeah, asymmetrical warfare has always worked out great. And that’s ignoring Iran of course… This is a huge fucking mess and I don’t think Israel’s response was appropriate even with their own best interest in mind. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/399 "2008-12-29T18:57:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Israel doesn’t actually HAVE to kill civilians, you know. You can’t just absolve them of responsibility that easily. > > And nobody plays the martyr role better than Israel, by the way. When the people that are shooting at your civilians hides behind their civilians, you have two choices: 1. Let your enemies hide behind _their_ civilians and indiscriminately slaughter _your_ people; 2. Shoot at your eneimes anyway, and hope for one of two outcomes: A. The civilian “shields” get tired of getting shot up inbetween to opposing forces, and give up/sell out/repudiate the bad guys; B. The bad guys run out of civilian “shields” In an abstract sort of way I might be interested in the tortured, twisted reasoning that went into the “Israel Plays Martyr” comment, but frankly, if you told me the sky was blue, grass is green, and that shit stinks, I’d double check before accepting your word, so any exposition on your part would be meaningless, inspite of its 99% nonsense quotient. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/400 "2008-12-29T19:02:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Israel does not have the best record of holding up its end of the deal. The Palestinians have no reason to trust that Israel is negotiating in good faith. What are you talking aobut? Israel handed over territory to the Palestinian Authority in 1994 as aggreed to by Rabin and Arafat, and their reward was a string of suicide bombings of Israeli civilians and the launch of Intifada II. And why are the Pals the responsibility of Israel, anyway? The Pals are really supposde to be in Jordan, so why doesn’t the US make King Abdullah take them in? Why hasn’t the Arab world given the PAls homes? Because the Arabs do not and have never wanted peace with Israel–they want to finish what Hitler started. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=21)