# Fuck Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 27, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867 "2008-12-27T19:30:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/401 "2008-12-29T19:02:15Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > \*\*Well, we’ve got an experiment running to test this claim. Israel’s just done a disproportionate response. You say it will end the conflict. > > If the conflict’s still in progress a year from now, would you concede that your proposition flunked the test?\*\* Just so it doesn’t get lost in the noise, I think this is the essential question. If the goal of these bombings is to end the rocket attacks, how many people are willing to state with confidence that this campaign will work? Would anybody be willing to bet money that Hamas will never fire rockets again? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/402 "2008-12-29T19:11:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Are saying there’s a moral _difference_? Are Israeli children more innocent than Palestinian children? The premises aren’t directly linked, despite your clumsy attempts to forcibly do so. It’s a simple enough question - is the Israeli government more inclined to violence against dissent than Hamas? Even if no children had been killed on either side for years, I still wouldn’t bet on a pro-Israeli protester outside Hamas HQ (which I pictured being in Gaza itself, not Syria) not being at greater risk than a counterpart at the Knesset. Your confidence in the safety of the Hamas protester speaks to how utterly divorced from reality you are on this issue _and proud of it, dammit!_ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/403 "2008-12-29T19:14:14Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The premises aren’t directly linked, despite your clumsy attempts to forcibly do so. It’s a simple enough question - is the Israeli government more inclined to violence against dissent than Hamas? I don’t know or care, and I think the question is irrelevant. Assuming Hamas is more intolerant to dissent, that still does not justify bombing Palestinian civilians, so what difference does it make? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/404 "2008-12-29T19:33:10Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > And why are the Pals the responsibility of Israel, anyway? By their choice: they choose to continue to control the land that the Palestinians live on, that they took in the 1967 war. Kinda like how invading and occupying Iraq made the bad shit that happened there since April 2003 _our_ responsibility. Soon as Israel gets out of the West Bank and Gaza, and only polices their borders that abut on Israel, then they cease to be Israel’s responsibility. > [@](#): > > The Pals are really supposde to be in Jordan, so why doesn’t the US make King Abdullah take them in? Why hasn’t the Arab world given the PAls homes? Because the Arabs do not and have never wanted peace with Israel–they want to finish what Hitler started. So _Arab governments over whom the Palestinians have no control_ haven’t given them a place to live. What does this have to do with the Palestinians? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/405 "2008-12-29T19:34:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t know or care, and I think the question is irrelevant. Assuming Hamas is more intolerant to dissent, that still does not justify bombing Palestinian civilians, so what difference does it make? It might indicate what’ll happen if one side or the other stops. I figure: Hamas stops rocket attacks - Israel stops retaliatory attacks. versus Israel stops retaliatory attacks - Hamas steps up rocket attacks. Some recognition of the differences between the characters of the combatants is in order. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/406 "2008-12-29T19:38:41Z")
Putting aside the question of Israel’s actions, is there anyone here who thinks that Hamas’ apparent conduct (rocket and mortar attacks) is justified or excusable? Just wondering. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/407 "2008-12-29T19:40:23Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > The Pals are really supposed to be in Jordan, so why doesn’t the US make King Abdullah take them in? Why hasn’t the Arab world given the PAls homes? Because the Arabs do not and have never wanted peace with Israel–they want to finish what Hitler started. You’re kind of generalzing a lot about Arabs, but out of curiosity, would you really support the US _forcing_ Jordan to take in Palestinians? By what means should it be forced? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/408 "2008-12-29T19:41:42Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Putting aside the question of Israel’s actions, is there anyone here who thinks that Hamas’ apparent conduct (rocket and mortar attacks) is justified or excusable? > > Just wondering. Not me. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/409 "2008-12-29T19:41:59Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > By their choice: they choose to continue to control the land that the Palestinians live on, that they took in the 1967 war. Kinda like how invading and occupying Iraq made the bad shit that happened there since April 2003 _our_ responsibility. > > Soon as Israel gets out of the West Bank and Gaza, and only polices their borders that abut on Israel, then they cease to be Israel’s responsibility. > > And then the Pals start to demand they be given East JErusalem, and then all of Jerusalem, and they thr unlimited right of return. . . There is no end to the demands of the Pals and they will not be satisfied until they have slaughtered every last Israeli. > > So _Arab governments over whom the Palestinians have no control_ haven’t given them a place to live. What does this have to do with the Palestinians? Because the Arab governments constantly use the Palestinians as a pretext for their own crimes, and because their refusal to sign permanent peace treaties with Israel helped cause the problem to begin with, and because they have covertly financed Palestinian terror groups. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/410 "2008-12-29T19:44:54Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Because the Arab governments constantly use the Palestinians as a pretext for their own crimes, and because their refusal to sign permanent peace treaties with Israel helped cause the problem to begin with, and because they have covertly financed Palestinian terror groups. How does any of this make the Palestinians to blame for those other Arab countries not be willing to take them in. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/411 "2008-12-29T19:46:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You’re kind of generalzing a lot about Arabs, but out of curiosity, would you really support the US _forcing_ Jordan to take in Palestinians? By what means should it be forced? Generalizing, how? Pointing out that the Arab world hates Jews and wants Israel destroyed and every Israeli slaughtered? That’s the facts. Hiding your head in the sand won’t change what is written in Arab papers and spoken on Arab TV and radio. As for leaning on King Abdullah, well, I don’t know, but there has to be a way. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/412 "2008-12-29T19:47:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How does any of this make the Palestinians to blame for those other Arab countries not be willing to take them in. Other way around–Arab governments are to blame for exploiting the Palestinians for their own sordid ends. ---
**Author:** ![kezami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eb8c5e/32.png) [@kezami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kezami)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/413 "2008-12-29T19:50:52Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > You know there might be technological fix to this. > > I remember reading in Popular Science about using high powered lasers for ground based defense. Lining the border with a set of these programmed to zap anything with a rocket’s thermal signature would render Hama’s rockets nothing but a fireworks show. Do you not realize that Hamas has been celebrating the settler’s departure from Gaza with fireworks since 2005? Unfortunately, they’ve all been duds and therefore have exploded on the ground instead of in the air in a beautiful technicolor display. Hamas has been remiss in not apologizing for this innocent malfunction. This conflict is really only a misunderstanding on Israel’s part. She is solely to blame! International condemnation is wholly warranted! ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/414 "2008-12-29T19:52:44Z")
Mind, Israel’s current offensive isn’t going to work because because their war isn’t with Hamas, but with decades of hatred in the Palestinian consciousness. You can’t kill a mindset with bullets and tanks. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/415 "2008-12-29T19:57:36Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Because the Arab governments constantly use the Palestinians as a pretext for their own crimes, Well, _that_ one’s _clearly_ the Palestinians’ fault. Got me there. > [@](#): > > and because their refusal to sign permanent peace treaties with Israel helped cause the problem to begin with, Ditto. > [@](#): > > and because they have covertly financed Palestinian terror groups. I guess this nonfacetiously has to do with the Palestinians that are members of terror groups - but unless you’re claiming that a significant portion of the Palestinian population participates in such groups, that still doesn’t have anything to do with Palestinians in general. ETA: didn’t see your post #411 until after I wrote this. But there’s still the question of why you brought that into the discussion. And what governments are using the Palestinians as a pretext for their own crimes? Are those the same governments we’ve asked to take the Palestinians in? (Which governments have we made this request of?) [/ETA] You use the phrase “Palestinian terror groups.” This makes me wonder about language. I’d imagine that having bombs dropped on civilians from airplanes is pretty terrifying for those civilians. How come those who do such things are never referred to as “terror groups”? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/416 "2008-12-29T20:09:04Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Generalizing, how? Pointing out that the Arab world hates Jews and wants Israel destroyed and every Israeli slaughtered? That’s the facts. Hiding your head in the sand won’t change what is written in Arab papers and spoken on Arab TV and radio. Maybe I’m just imagining it, but I coulda sworn that, just a few years ago, the entire Arab League agreed to recognize Israel in return for Israel’s withdrawal from the occupied territories. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/417 "2008-12-29T20:10:30Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Well, _that_ one’s _clearly_ the Palestinians’ fault. Got me there. Ditto. I guess this nonfacetiously has to do with the Palestinians that are members of terror groups - but unless you’re claiming that a significant portion of the Palestinian population participates in such groups, that still doesn’t have anything to do with Palestinians in general. > > ETA: didn’t see your post #411 until after I wrote this. But there’s still the question of why you brought that into the discussion. Because other Arab governments need to be brought into the discussion. IT’s their region, not ours, and they are going to have to live with the consequences of any agreement. And what governments are using the Palestinians as a pretext for their own crimes? Are those the same governments we’ve asked to take the Palestinians in? (Which governments have we made this request of?) [/ETA] You use the phrase “Palestinian terror groups.” This makes me wonder about language. I’d imagine that having bombs dropped on civilians from airplanes is pretty terrifying for those civilians. How come those who do such things are never referred to as “terror groups”? [/QUOTE] Is Israel attacking Gaza unprovoked? Is Israel targeting civilians? Has Israel planted bomobs on schoolbusses (The Pals have). Do Israelis sing and dance when Pal children are killed (the Pals do when it’s Israeli kids. RT, you are an apologist for Pal terrorism and a supporter of their campaign to exterminate Israelis. You and your fellow travelers are unwitting cheerleaders for the next Holocaust because nothing less than the deaths of every single Israeli and the destruction of Israel as a nation will satisfy the Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/418 "2008-12-29T20:15:20Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Maybe I’m just imagining it, but I coulda sworn that, just a few years ago, the entire Arab League agreed to recognize Israel in return for Israel’s withdrawal from the occupied territories. And there you have a problem–the ultra-Zionist West Bank settlers will not be moved, and even knocking down small settlements ignites armed confrontations between the settlers and Israeli troops. Israel has to vacate the West Bank entirely if it is going to have peace. At the same time, the Pals have to show that they are serious about a permanent peace. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/419 "2008-12-29T20:16:39Z")
OT: Welcome back **gobear**. Nice to see you around again. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/420 "2008-12-29T20:17:18Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > OT: Welcome back **gobear**. Nice to see you around again. Danke, meine Shayna maidel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=22)