# Fuck Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 27, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867 "2008-12-27T19:30:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/421 "2008-12-29T20:23:36Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > And there you have a problem–the ultra-Zionist West Bank settlers will not be moved, and even knocking down small settlements ignites armed confrontations between the settlers and Israeli troops. > > Israel has to vacate the West Bank entirely if it is going to have peace. At the same time, the Pals have to show that they are serious about a permanent peace. Now everything in this post, I agree with. And I agree with **Shayna** that it’s nice to see you back. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/422 "2008-12-29T20:30:05Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Because other Arab governments need to be brought into the discussion. IT’s their region, not ours, and they are going to have to live with the consequences of any agreement. They’ve brought themselves into the discussion, or so I thought. See post 415. > [@](#): > > Is Israel attacking Gaza unprovoked? Is Israel targeting civilians? Let’s just say that I don’t believe it’s killed 280 Hamas terrorists, and had collateral damage of 35 civilians. If you don’t care how many civilians you kill, it hardly matters if you’re ‘targeting’ them or not, now does it? > [@](#): > > Has Israel planted bomobs on schoolbusses (The Pals have). No, but have they killed as many Palestinian civilians by bombing and whatnot as the Palestinian terrorists have done by planting bombs on schoolbuses? Sure looks like it, doesn’t it? Look, dead is dead, killed is killed. > [@](#): > > Do Israelis sing and dance when Pal children are killed (the Pals do when it’s Israeli kids. I don’t care if the Israeli bombardiers kill Pal children, then agonize it for hours afterwards with their girlfriends. Killed is killed. > [@](#): > > RT, you are an apologist for Pal terrorism and a supporter of their campaign to exterminate Israelis. Because I’m pointing out some flaws in some arguments you’ve directed at Arabs, I’m an apologist for Palestinian terrorism? By the same token, you’re an apologist for men who’d sodomize small children, seeing as how you’re gay. No, I don’t think that for a second - just driving home the weakness of your claim. > [@](#): > > You and your fellow travelers are unwitting cheerleaders for the next Holocaust because nothing less than the deaths of every single Israeli and the destruction of Israel as a nation will satisfy the Palestinians. Yeah, playing the Holocaust card. There should be some sort of Godwin variant for this. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/423 "2008-12-29T20:34:10Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > You and your fellow travelers are unwitting cheerleaders for the next Holocaust because nothing less than the deaths of every single Israeli and the destruction of Israel as a nation will satisfy the Palestinians. OTOH, there appear to be far too many Israelis – not a majority, but far too many – who feel exactly the same way about the Palestinians. (They might be satisfied with expulsion, but ethnic cleansing in that form is in practice little short of genocide, as any Oklahoma Cherokee whose ancestors walked the Trail of Tears from Georgia will tell you.) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/424 "2008-12-29T20:38:24Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > And there you have a problem–the ultra-Zionist West Bank settlers will not be moved, and even knocking down small settlements ignites armed confrontations between the settlers and Israeli troops. Well, that sure is a problem, isn’t it? And the Israeli population on the West Bank went from 130,000 in 1995 to 270,000 last year; they’re getting harder to move, and they pretty much drive the Israeli policy towards the Palestinians. Meanwhile, you have all sorts of barriers and checkpoints and all for the Palestinians - not just between pre-1967 Israel and the West Bank, but between different parts of the West Bank, in order to protect those settlements, and in the process make life impossible for Palestinians. I’m sure that if someone chopped up the D.C. area like that, so that going from Old Town to Shirlington, you had to wait two hours each at three checkpoints, we’d all just take it in stride. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/425 "2008-12-29T20:45:19Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > And there you have a problem–the ultra-Zionist West Bank settlers will not be moved, and even knocking down small settlements ignites armed confrontations between the settlers and Israeli troops. > > Israel has to vacate the West Bank entirely if it is going to have peace. If Israel pulls out of the West Bank, why do the settlers need to leave? Surely the Palestinians would be tolerant of a Jewish minority, no? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/426 "2008-12-29T20:56:24Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > If Israel pulls out of the West Bank, why do the settlers need to leave? Surely the Palestinians would be tolerant of a Jewish minority, no? Why should they tolerate trespassers, no matter what their ethnicity? If an Arab family moved into your back yard, would you be “tolerant” of that minority? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/427 "2008-12-29T21:11:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why should they tolerate trespassers, no matter what their ethnicity? Maybe for the same reason that American Indians tolerate white people living in Minnesota. Or maybe for the same reason that white people in Minnesota tolerate American Indians. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/428 "2008-12-29T21:23:21Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why should they tolerate trespassers, no matter what their ethnicity? > > If an Arab family moved into your back yard, would you be “tolerant” of that minority? What if the “trespassers” were born there? Remember, some of those settlements have been there for 40 years. If you were born in a place, grew up there and raised a family there, does anyone have the right to tell you its not your home because of something your \*parents \*did? I believe that being born in a place makes you a native - it’s pretty much the definition of the word. Why does a Jew native to the the territories have less right to live there than an Arab? Ever heard of [squatter’s rights](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squatter%27s_rights)? Look - by and large, I’m not all that crazy about the settlers. I think a lot of them are pretty obnoxious, and I don’t really get along with them on a personal basis. Still, they’re my people, and I can’t be as blasי as you are about kicking them out of the only home they’ve ever known. Talk about removing the settlers all you want, but bear in mind that there’s a human factor here, too. Plus, they don’t want to go, and I’d rather fight Arabs than Jews. It’s part of the whole “sticking together” thing. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/429 "2008-12-29T21:33:18Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Maybe for the same reason that American Indians tolerate white people living in Minnesota. Or maybe for the same reason that white people in Minnesota tolerate American Indians. I’m so proud, and so offended. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/430 "2008-12-29T21:37:13Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > No, but have they killed as many Palestinian civilians by bombing and whatnot as the Palestinian terrorists have done by planting bombs on school buses? Sure looks like it, doesn’t it? > > Look, dead is dead, killed is killed. To continue the Godwin, in WWII the US killed thousands of German and Japanese civilians. If the US had not taken up arms in WWII, and all those civilians were not killed, would we be living in a better world? Similarly, the Palestinian combatants hide behind civilians; should Israel not fight for fear of hitting a civilian, and let the Palestinians attack them unimpeded? There is a huge moral difference between the unavoidable killing of civilians during combat and the deliberate targeting of civilians. Again, the Pals deliberately target Israeli kids and think nothing of sending their own children to die in jihad. > [@](#): > > By the same token, you’re an apologist for men who’d sodomize small children, seeing as how you’re gay. A. Being gay has nothing to do with child molestation. B. Statistically, hetero men commit the vast majority of attacks on children, so your “riposte” is nonsensical C. I’m not buying your disclaimer. “No, I don’t think that for a second” --I think you just showed what you really think about gay people. I attacked you for holding a morally reprehensible position. You attacked me for who I am. And don’t play innocent with the “Oh, I was just drawing a parallel argument”. You knew what you were doing. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/431 "2008-12-29T21:40:55Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > What if the “trespassers” were born there? Remember, some of those settlements have been there for 40 years. If you were born in a place, grew up there and raised a family there, does anyone have the right to tell you its not your home because of something your \*parents \*did? I believe that being born in a place makes you a native - it’s pretty much the definition of the word. Why does a Jew native to the the territories have less right to live there than an Arab? Not only that, but there was a Jewish community in Hebron for quite a while before they were kicked out in 1929. There seems to be an unspoken assumption floating around that the Palestinians should have a state which is Judenrein and I would like to question it. The Jewish state is expected to be tolerant of an Arab minority. Why shouldn’t Palestinians have to accept and tolerate a Jewish minority? That’s if we are to accept the premise of equivalent morality, of course. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/432 "2008-12-29T21:44:37Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Maybe for the same reason that American Indians tolerate white people living in Minnesota. Or maybe for the same reason that white people in Minnesota tolerate American Indians. In the first case, because the Indians are powerless; in the second case, because the Indians are powerless. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/433 "2008-12-29T21:46:29Z")
Damn well said. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/434 "2008-12-29T21:49:23Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > There seems to be an unspoken assumption floating around that the Palestinians should have a state which is Judenrein and I would like to question it. The Jewish state is expected to be tolerant of an Arab minority. Why shouldn’t Palestinians have to accept and tolerate a Jewish minority? They are not just a “minority” but a ruling caste. The settlers have forced the Palestinians into tightly controlled Bantustans within their own country, taken the best land, and built their own economy in which Palestinians do not participate. No Palestinian state can be economically viable until all that is swept away, and I can’t think of any way to do that that allows the settlers to remain. Can you? Just maybe, best-case scenario, it would be like post-Apartheid South Africa – the whites were not forced to leave, but, deprived of their monopoly on political power, many chose to do so. But Israeli-Palestinian tensions are even worse than racial tensions under Apartheid. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/435 "2008-12-29T23:03:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In the first case, because the Indians are powerless; in the second case, because the Indians are powerless. Let’s suppose that’s true. It’s still a possible answer to **Dio** ’s question. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/436 "2008-12-29T23:06:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Just maybe, best-case scenario, it would be like post-Apartheid South Africa – the whites were not forced to leave, but, deprived of their monopoly on political power, many chose to do so. But Israeli-Palestinian tensions are even worse than racial tensions under Apartheid. I think you’re politely trying to say that a West Bank under Palestinian control is likely to be intolerant and hostile towards a Jewish minority and is very likely to slaughter and chase out the Jews just as was done to whites in Zimbabwe. Or did I misunderstand? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/437 "2008-12-29T23:23:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > built their own economy in which Palestinians do not participate. I know you don’t let facts get in the way of a good screed, but [no.](http://www.medea.be/index.html?page=2&lang=en&doc=284) ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/438 "2008-12-29T23:33:03Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I know you don’t let facts get in the way of a good screed, but [no.](http://www.medea.be/index.html?page=2&lang=en&doc=284) By the way, is there any serious support for **BrainGlutton** ’s claim that Jewish settlers have grabbed the “best land”? It sounds like liberal bullshit to me. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/439 "2008-12-29T23:33:17Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I think you’re politely trying to say that a West Bank under Palestinian control is likely to be intolerant and hostile towards a Jewish minority and is very likely to slaughter and chase out the Jews just as was done to whites in Zimbabwe. If he is, I’d like to sugest that the Jews will be sufficiently determined and well-armed to not make this nearly as easy as the Zimbabwe actions. ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/440 "2008-12-29T23:40:33Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Frankly, I’m not surprised that DtC is weaseling, for him to do what he proposed would be suicide. I know it, he knows it, you know it. I just so happen to think that America would be a much better place without Dio in it, so I’m willing to finance his suicide. Frankly it’s win/win for me. If he takes me up on my offer, he’ll be dead and the world will be a better place. Win. **Warning: Weirddave** , we don’t have a lot of rules in the Pit, but you’re breaking one of them. Don’t wish death on another poster - this includes suggesting their death will make the world a better place. If you do this again you’ll be suspended or banned. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=23)