# Fuck Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 27, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867 "2008-12-27T19:30:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/461 "2008-12-30T02:17:56Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > if they want that, then it would be best to stop blowing things up. Except they have no good reason to think that would work. Certainly Israel has made no promise, not even a conditional one, to remove the settlers under any circumstances. > [@bdgr](#): > > If you want to get rid of the babysitter, stop acting like you need a babysitter. :dubious: . . . That is . . . a very poorly-thought-out analogy, to put it mildly. > [@bdgr](#): > > And definitely stop saying the only solution they will accept is the destruction of Israel. Agreed wholeheartedly. But, again, no reason to think that would work. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/462 "2008-12-30T02:33:57Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > To continue the Godwin, in WWII the US killed thousands of German and Japanese civilians. If the US had not taken up arms in WWII, and all those civilians were not killed, would we be living in a better world? > > Similarly, the Palestinian combatants hide behind civilians; should Israel not fight for fear of hitting a civilian, and let the Palestinians attack them unimpeded? Your analogy, then: the U.S. killed civilians in WWII, and the Israelis have killed Palestinian civilians more recently. There’s no difference, so both are right, or both are wrong. Is that your argument? If so, it’s a type of argument that’s been refuted many times, and I’m not going to bore myself by doing it once more. If not, then please to be more specific in the connection you’re drawing. > [@](#): > > There is a huge moral difference between the unavoidable killing of civilians during combat and the deliberate targeting of civilians. Well, yes. So, were these killings unavoidable? What crucial end was accomplished by these attacks? Please make yourself clear. > [@](#): > > Again, the Pals deliberately target Israeli kids and think nothing of sending their own children to die in jihad. “the Pals”? You know, one of the reasons I stopped reading the Gospel of John is the author’s use of “the Jews,” lumping them all together as if the actions of the worst were characteristic of the entire tribe. It was racist to the core, and once I saw it, I couldn’t unsee it when I read those passages. Palestinians in general do these things? How do you know? > [@](#): > > A. Being gay has nothing to do with child molestation. My point exactly. > [@](#): > > B. Statistically, hetero men commit the vast majority of attacks on children, so your “riposte” is nonsensical Speaking of nonsense, that’s pretty meaningless too. Saying that hetero men, who outnumber gay men something like 20 to 1, commit merely a “vast majority” of _any_ sort of crime committed by males, implies that gay men are still proportionately outperforming their straight brethren. > [@](#): > > C. I’m not buying your disclaimer. “No, I don’t think that for a second” --I think you just showed what you really think about gay people. Boy, we’re really jumping to conclusions today, aren’t we, **gobear**? First, you claim that I’m an apologist for terrorism. I’m still trying to figure out what I’d said up to that point in the thread that could possibly justify such an extravagant claim. Now I apparently hate gay men. Whatever. > [@](#): > > I attacked you for holding a morally reprehensible position. You attacked me for who I am. Go back and read your words - “RT, you are an apologist for Pal terrorism.” Not “RT, your _position_ here is morally reprehensible,” but “you ARE an apologist for terrorism.” So quit pretending to be all innocent, as you might say. I’m not particularly bothered by this; I’m just pointing out that your distinction here is bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/463 "2008-12-30T02:48:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Certainly Israel has made no promise, not even a conditional one, to remove the settlers under any circumstances. [Wrong again](http://www.mideastweb.org/campdavid2.htm) > [@](#): > > Land Area of Palestine > > The initial area of the Palestinian state would comprise about 73% of the land area of the West Bank and all of Gaza. The West Bank would be divided by the road from Jerusalem to the Dead Sea and a corridor on either side of it. This would form two relatively large Palestinian areas and one small enclave surrounding Jericho. The three areas would be joined by a free passage without checkpoints, but the safe passage could be closed by Israel in case of emergency. According to Palestinian sources, there would be another division between the area north of the Ariel and Shilo settlements along the trans-Shomron highway built by Israel. > > In later stages (10-25 years) Israel would cede additional areas, particularly in the mountains overlooking the Jordan valley, to bring the total area to slightly under 90% of the area of the West Bank (94% excluding greater Jerusalem). > > The major settlement blocks adjacent to Jerusalem and in the Jerusalem corridor would be annexed to Israel: Efrat, Gush Etzion, Ma’ale Edumim. The town of Ariel and the corridor along the trans-Samaria highway would be annexed to Israel. The Jewish settlement town of Qiriat Arba would remain under Israeli administration in the heart of Palestinian territory, with a single road through Palestinian territory reaching it from the south. Isolated Jewish settlements including the settlement in Hebron, would come under Palestinian jurisdiction and would probably be abandoned. It’s actually rather amazing; you just don’t let your utter lack of knowledge stop you from resorting to bombastic bluster. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/464 "2008-12-30T02:50:50Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > You know, one of the reasons I stopped reading the Gospel of John is the author’s use of “the Jews,” lumping them all together as if the actions of the worst were characteristic of the entire tribe. It was racist to the core, and once I saw it, I couldn’t unsee it when I read those passages. Well, to be fair it’s also a well-established figure of speech – in the plural or in the collective singular, i.e, “the Jew.” Even Martin Luther King spoke of “the Negro.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/465 "2008-12-30T02:51:53Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > [Wrong again](http://www.mideastweb.org/campdavid2.htm) > > It’s actually rather amazing; you just don’t let your utter lack of knowledge stop you from resorting to bombastic bluster. I meant a promise to remove **all** the settlers, including those between the Green Line and the Wall. The Palestinians might not need that land to live on, but a Palestinian state needs it to thrive. (It does **not** need East Jerusalem.) ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/466 "2008-12-30T03:30:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If I water your lawn, does that it mine? I accidentally a whole Palestine. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/467 "2008-12-30T03:44:00Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > I accidentally a whole Palestine. That rhymes **and** scans! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/468 "2008-12-30T03:46:17Z")
Could someone briefly convince me that the collateral civilian damage I’ve been reading about due to this attack is worth it? ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/469 "2008-12-30T03:48:32Z")
> [@alterego](#): > > Could someone briefly convince me that the collateral civilian damage I’ve been reading about due to this attack is worth it? Worth it to whom? If it convinces Hamas that they should stop launching rockets, than I’m sure the Israelis will think that it was worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/470 "2008-12-30T03:48:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A foolish statement. Without some sort of coercion, the settlers will simply take everything and keep it indefinitely. You won’t ever see peace from the Palestinians unless and until they have something to gain from it beyond starving in a slum or a camp. > > And it’s amusing how supposedly it’s perfectly reasonable for the Israelis to try to get what they want by killing, but not for the Palestinians to do the same thing. The Israelis aren’t getting what they want by killing. And frankly I have no respect for a government that doesn’t act in the best interests of it’s people. What the Palestinians really want isn’t relevant, they are simply not going to get all of Palestine back. It’s the providence of government then to come to some passable agreement for the betterment of it’s citizens. There is certainly blood on the hands of Israel, I won’t ever argue different, but the reality of the past 60 years is absolutely clear. Israel will stay, Palestine will not heal, every generation of Palestinians will suffer far more than Israelis until an agreement is reached. The expulsion of all Jews is not an agreement. Japan didn’t want to surrender during World War II either. ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/471 "2008-12-30T03:50:00Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > Worth it to whom? > If it convinces Hamas that they should stop launching rockets, than I’m sure the Israelis will think that it was worth it. Don’t be an idiot. Worth it to me. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/472 "2008-12-30T04:09:16Z")
> [@Grey\_area](#): > > I don’t know what Israel is hoping to achieve with their retaliation beyond cold blooded (not to mention hugely disproportionate) revenge. This is only going breed more support for Hamas because they’re giving more and more reasons to hate Israel. I don’t think the average Palestinian (or the average anyone in a 3rd world country with shoddy education along with all the other joys of poverty) is going fully appreciate that Hamas is an extremist nutso organization. I think he’s more likely to notice that his city is fucked and his uncle is dead. > Beat Palestine into submission? Yeah, asymmetrical warfare has always worked out great. And that’s ignoring Iran of course… > > This is a huge fucking mess and I don’t think Israel’s response was appropriate even with their own best interest in mind. The response is probably dsigned to make enemies of Israel think twice about causing shit in the future. And after that standstill in Lebanon, the army probably feels it needs to strengthen if not return the image of the army as a valid deterrent force. That [Pizzaidf](http://pizzaidf.org/) website is back up after being down for a while, because of heavy traffic or general Internet chaos in that area I don’t know. Bookmarked it after it appeared on Weird Earl’s awhile back. The wife and I shall soon be sending some more pizzas to the troops. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/473 "2008-12-30T04:22:32Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > Worth it to whom? > If it convinces Hamas that they should stop launching rockets, than I’m sure the Israelis will think that it was worth it. Sure. It will also be worth it if it makes gold and silver rain from Heaven. And the odds are about the same. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/474 "2008-12-30T04:27:07Z")
> [@alterego](#): > > Don’t be an idiot. Worth it to me. How would anyone know the value you put on someone else’s lives? Was the killing in Iraq “worth it”? How about Afghanistan? It’s a pretty stupid question, if you have no dog in the fight. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/475 "2008-12-30T04:30:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Except they have no good reason to think that would work. Certainly Israel has made no promise, not even a conditional one, to remove the settlers under any circumstances. Yes they did. The Israeli proposals at Camp David 2 had Israel withdrawing from the West Bank settlements with the exception of Efrat, Gush Etzion, Ma’ale Edunim and Ariel. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/476 "2008-12-30T04:47:40Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Japan didn’t want to surrender during World War II either. But they did because the emperor told them to. Palestine has no emperor. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/477 "2008-12-30T05:26:40Z")
> [@alexandra](#): > > A fair few Americans like to forget that quite a huge factor in the Nazis being defeated were the efforts of those evil Commies. I agree. Especially the part about them being evil. They were just evil Commies on the right side of the war. Valete, Vox Imperatoris ETA: **BrainGlutton** , are you seriously arguing that the only reason for the surrender of the Japanese people was that he told them to? If he had told them to surrender in 1942, they would have deposed him as a nut. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/478 "2008-12-30T05:32:08Z")
They wouldn’t have deposed him. The Japanese viewed the Emperor as a god, not as a politician. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/479 "2008-12-30T05:35:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They wouldn’t have deposed him. The Japanese viewed the Emperor as a god, not as a politician. They weren’t stupid. If the Emperor had asked them to do things that seemed to them to be obviously insane and harmful to the Japanese Empire, the higher-ups would have gotten rid of him (or at least ignored him in a shogun-like situation). If God tells you to cut off your own balls, then that’s just too bad for God. ETA: And sure, if it were just one individual told to do something insane, then he might do it out of pressure and “honor”. But if the whole group is receiving intolerable orders, the order-giver is not going to have power for long. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/480 "2008-12-30T05:39:21Z")
> [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > ETA: **BrainGlutton** , are you seriously arguing that the only reason for the surrender of the Japanese people was that he told them to? I’m saying that his telling them to surrender made it psychologically possible for them to accept defeat (at a time when they were making ready for a last-ditch defense, the entire adult population, men and women, being drilled – with spears, as there were not enough rifles to go around). But nobody can do that for the Palestinians. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=25)