# Fuck Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 27, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867 "2008-12-27T19:30:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/481 "2008-12-30T07:05:00Z")
> [@Struan](#): > > Oh man, that’s really sad. There’s nothing but hate and pain and death down this road. Yeah but it’s Israel. Since they (not exactly Israel, of course) themselves got Holocausted, they apparently get a free pass on Holocausting someone else. When the EU (who witnessed the horrors of Holocaust #1 from their front yard) complains about Holocaust #2 they must of course be rabid anti-Semites. Just as anyone who complained about Holocaust #1 was merely a reactionary anti-Teuton. Never Again? Well, maybe not with such industrial efficiency, but… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/482 "2008-12-30T07:20:46Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Yeah but it’s Israel. Since they (not exactly Israel, of course) themselves got Holocausted, they apparently get a free pass on Holocausting someone else. When the EU (who witnessed the horrors of Holocaust #1 from their front yard) complains about Holocaust #2 they must of course be rabid anti-Semites. > > Just as anyone who complained about Holocaust #1 was merely a reactionary anti-Teuton. > > Never Again? Well, maybe not with such industrial efficiency, but… If we’re so intent on “Holocausting” the Palestinians, then why are there still so damn many of them? Ah, forget it. It’s become the stock response of the anti-Israel crowd: “Israelis think the Holocaust gives them a free pass and accuse anyone of criticizing them of being antisemitism.” No matter that this has little basis in fact, and is in fact rank demonization; it’s a useful way to act superior and avoid actually thinking about the issues. As the only actual Israeli in this thread - have I accused anyone of antisemitism? Have I invoked the Holocaust? The truth is that we’re no different than any other nation, and we’re acting as any other nation would under similar circumstances; in fact, the main difference is that, as a result of our past, we’re acting more humanely than most other nations would of they were in our shoes. Look at Russia in Chechnya, for instance, or the U.S. in Afghanistan (the very definition of a “disproportionate response”, incidentally). ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/483 "2008-12-30T07:26:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And for the recond, I don’t hate anyone. Hate is a useless, wasteful emotion. Dude. You’re Israeli, right? ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/484 "2008-12-30T07:28:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Except they have no good reason to think that would work. Certainly Israel has made no promise, not even a conditional one, to remove the settlers under any circumstances. Well, they damn sure will never get any respect or concessions as long as they are blowing up school buses. > [@](#): > > :dubious: . . . That is . . . a very poorly-thought-out analogy, to put it mildly. I disagree. they have the idf all over them so they wont blow stuff up…so they blow more stuff up…it’s self defeating. > [@](#): > > Agreed wholeheartedly. But, again, no reason to think that would work. Work? What does it matter if it works…It would at least give them some moral ground to stand on. As long as they make their mission statement “kill the jews” then Israel is pretty well jusified in the ultra strict security measures. It would be the first step to proving they are ready to sit at the grown up table. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/485 "2008-12-30T07:28:13Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Dude. You’re Israeli, right? Indeed I am. And? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/486 "2008-12-30T07:28:25Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > If we’re so intent on “Holocausting” the Palestinians, then why are there still so damn many of them? “…Killing Arabs Since 1948: It’s Taking Longer Than We Thought.” ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/487 "2008-12-30T07:28:28Z")
I think it’s time to mention the elephant in the room here and admit that the “Palestinians” are an artificial concept. That name for them didn’t even come into popular use until a few decades ago, they are a displaced population used as a cat’s-paw by the Arab countries in area as a dagger against Israel’s throat. If they cared at all for the Palestinians, the other countries in the area could easily absorb the roughly 3.5 million who live in the Palestinian territories, but the other countries in the area don’t care one wit about them, lip service to the contrary, as long as they can be used to pressure Israel. The fact of the matter is that they are Jordanians, always have been Jordanians, and Jordan should get off it’s ass and make a permanent place for them in Jordan. Recognize Israel, embrace their own people instead of keeping them in limbo for political reasons and welcome the refugees wholeheartedly into Jordanian society and culture. That would end this whole mess. ---
**Author:** ![Just](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4af34b/32.png) [@Just](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/488 "2008-12-30T07:28:35Z")
If anything, Israel has been far too lenient with Hamas. Hamas broke the peace treaty (how do you have a peace treaty with a fucking terrorist group, anyway?), firing 90ish rockets at Israel… and Israel did nothing. The next day, Hamas fires 90 or 100 more rockets at Israel… and Israel again does nothing, except to say “Stop, or we’ll fight back.” Rocket attacks continue for several more days… and gee, Israel gets pissed off that rockets are raining down on their civilians, how dare they?! Hamas knew this would be the response, and didn’t care. And now of course they hide within the Gaza civilian population to cause more civilian deaths. Israel’s first and foremost concern is to protect its _own_ citizens, not anyone else’s. If it were any other nation in Israel’s position, Hamas would be long gone, and then maybe these ridiculously ignorant claims of Holocaust #2 would actually make the slightest bit of sense. But in the meantime, fuck Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/489 "2008-12-30T08:14:30Z")
> [@Just](#): > > Hamas broke the peace treaty To be clear, Hamas is accusing Israel of breaking it first by not lifting the blockade. You may decide not to consider their complaints viable, but know that they exist. > [@Just](#): > > (how do you have a peace treaty with a fucking terrorist group, anyway?) Aside from organizing terrorist attacks, Hamas is also the ruling political party there. Talking about Hamas and Fatah would be the equivalent of talking about Republicans and Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/490 "2008-12-30T08:20:57Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > I think it’s time to mention the elephant in the room here and admit that the “Palestinians” are an artificial concept. That name for them didn’t even come into popular use until a few decades ago, they are a displaced population used as a cat’s-paw by the Arab countries in area as a dagger against Israel’s throat. If they cared at all for the Palestinians, the other countries in the area could easily absorb the roughly 3.5 million who live in the Palestinian territories, but the other countries in the area don’t care one wit about them, lip service to the contrary, as long as they can be used to pressure Israel. The fact of the matter is that they are Jordanians, always have been Jordanians, and Jordan should get off it’s ass and make a permanent place for them in Jordan. Recognize Israel, embrace their own people instead of keeping them in limbo for political reasons and welcome the refugees wholeheartedly into Jordanian society and culture. That would end this whole mess. You’re insane. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/491 "2008-12-30T08:21:20Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Yeah but it’s Israel. Since they (not exactly Israel, of course) themselves got Holocausted, they apparently get a free pass on Holocausting someone else. No, but they have an understandable reason to distrust neighbors whose official statements and common rhetoric is very similar to that used by the German government before the holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/492 "2008-12-30T08:27:25Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > You’re insane. Well, aside from them being Jordanians (Jordan itself is a product of colonial administration), his take doesn’t sound too far off to me, and far more rational than, say Diogenes’. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/493 "2008-12-30T08:59:17Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, aside from them being Jordanians (Jordan itself is a product of colonial administration), his take doesn’t sound too far off to me, and far more rational than, say Diogenes’. Aside from his main point he’s entirely rational? Are you saying that the Arab population of the area defined as Palestine are all from other places? You really have taken the Israeli rewrite of history to heart. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/494 "2008-12-30T09:32:14Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > Aside from his main point he’s entirely rational? Well, I don’t know, maybe he strangles girl scouts in his spare time. > [@](#): > > Are you saying that the Arab population of the area defined as Palestine are all from other places? You really have taken the Israeli rewrite of history to heart. The Palestinians are pretty much “from” where they’re living now. Even the ones in border refugee camps are displaced at most a hundred miles from where their ancestors have lived since time immemorial. They didn’t flood into the region when Israel was founded, if that what you’re assuming I’m assuming. The stories of course vary throughout the region, but mostly the Palestinians (as they are now known - Weirddave is correct that it’s a relatively recent designation) are refugees from the conflicts in 1948 and 1967 and such. They _could_ have been assimilated into the states bordering Israel, but these states (themselves the result of colonial administration and conflict) have their reasons to not allow it. I admit it sucks for the Palestinians to be displaced in this manner, but Israel isn’t going anywhere in the near future and it has a population both eager and capable of defending itself. I personally would like to see a pullback of settlements where possible and a three-state solution with the West Bank and Gaza achieving civil and eventually military autonomy (I don’t know of a specific reason that these two need to form a single state), though they might just end up as modern vassal states. Failing that, Israel could simply learn to live with a low but steady level of violence through the forseeable future. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/495 "2008-12-30T09:35:52Z")
> [@Just](#): > > (how do you have a peace treaty with a fucking terrorist group, anyway?) When they get elected. It’s not like Hamas is the only elected political organization that engages in terrorism. Israel has agreements with America, for example, and America engages in terrorism ( in Iran for example ). ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/496 "2008-12-30T09:37:52Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I realize you don’t like to be called on your bullshit, Sevastapol (who does, after all?), but a viable strategy is to stop spreading it, rather than transparent attempts at deflection. This is of course uncalled for. Previously I have responded to you with full civility as fits a person of substance. Clearly this does not please you and is now finalised. As to the earlier thread, you made a sequence of strong assertions about Hamas and could not support them when asked, shifting ground also. I thought is prudent to end the discussion with your dignity in tact and the lesson learnt. There is always the danger that courtesy is taken for weakness, as mine was. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/497 "2008-12-30T09:42:56Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > This is of course uncalled for. Previously I have responded to you with full civility as fits a person of substance. Clearly this does not please you and is now finalised. As to the earlier thread, you made a sequence of strong assertions about Hamas and could not support them when asked, shifting ground also. I thought is prudent end the discussion with your dignity in tact and the lesson learnt. There is always the danger that courtesy is taken for weakness, as mine was. I cordially and politely invite a cite supporting the “shifting ground” allegation above. ---
**Author:** ![Just](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4af34b/32.png) [@Just](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/498 "2008-12-30T09:47:48Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > To be clear, Hamas is accusing Israel of breaking it first by not lifting the blockade. You may decide not to consider their complaints viable, but know that they exist. Oh I already know they exist. And you’re right, I don’t consider their complaints viable. > [@](#): > > Aside from organizing terrorist attacks, Hamas is also the ruling political party there. Talking about Hamas and Fatah would be the equivalent of talking about Republicans and Democrats. Now _that_ is ridiculous. Until either the Republicans or Democrats are considered a terrorist organisation by the rest of the world - due, of course, to directly targeting _civilians_, that is a ridiculous analogy. From [Wikipedia:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas) > [@](#): > > Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada,[11] the European Union,[12][13][14][15] Israel,[16] Japan,[17] and the United States,[18] and is banned in Jordan. Who gives a shit if they’re the ruling political party? Makes absolutely no difference. Israel should crush 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/499 "2008-12-30T09:47:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Hey-hey-hey! _I’m_ the one who proposed it, though it was just to illustrate that for all his blather about moral equivalence, it’s far safer to protest the Knesset’s actions than Hamas’s. He sufficiently hates Israel, though, that he’s engaged in a stubborn Bush-like denial of reality, much like Sevastapol. **'tOpol** ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/500 "2008-12-30T09:52:42Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Israel wants the violence to end and has offered the PAas deal after deal for decades. In return the Pal leadership continues to amp up their people’s desire for the ertermination of Israel and its people. Again, the propaganda that will not die. By now though we have sufficient evidence to understand why the particular lie of a planned extermination of the Israeli jews is so important and repeated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=26)