# Fuck Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 27, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867 "2008-12-27T19:30:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/501 "2008-12-30T10:00:42Z")
Personally, I don’t think the Hamas is sufficiently organized to plan the extermination of a pile of sandwiches, but I can only imagine that tensions would lessen if they dropped such rhetoric from their charter and official statements. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/502 "2008-12-30T10:01:37Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > … Because the Arabs do not and have never wanted peace with Israel–they want to finish what Hitler started. What is the appropriate response to the calumny, put about so insistently, energetically and falsely. Biblically speaking 4 times the false accusation should be visited upon the speaker I believe, correct me if otherwise. In any case yet another reason why we should pay no mind to those obsolete books. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/503 "2008-12-30T10:03:46Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Putting aside the question of Israel’s actions, is there anyone here who thinks that Hamas’ apparent conduct (rocket and mortar attacks) is justified or excusable? > > Just wondering. I’m stuck at comprehensible, but may break through. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/504 "2008-12-30T10:05:40Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > … Pointing out that the Arab world wants … every Israeli slaughtered? That’s the facts. … Citey poo? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/505 "2008-12-30T10:10:12Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > If Israel pulls out of the West Bank, why do the settlers need to leave? Surely the Palestinians would be tolerant of a Jewish minority, no? Although your question is facetious, the answer is yes and no. The general Palestinian position is acceptance of the population and descendants of pre-1947 (give or take a year). This plainly envisages a Jewish minority, but not the one composed in the same manner as your scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/506 "2008-12-30T10:13:36Z")
> [@Just](#): > > Who gives a shit if they’re the ruling political party? Makes absolutely no difference. Israel should crush 'em. Then you should understand that we are not talking about a bunch of people in a damp cellar, but a political party whose supporters make more than half of the population of the area. This is not a bad eighties movie with a cackling supervillain to take down. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/507 "2008-12-30T10:15:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The Palestinians are pretty much “from” where they’re living now. Even the ones in border refugee camps are displaced at most a hundred miles from where their ancestors have lived since time immemorial. They didn’t flood into the region when Israel was founded, if that what you’re assuming I’m assuming. I was assuming that you were ascribing to the Israeli myth that everyone apart from the Jews in the region are foreign invaders. You appear to have a more realistic view, so I apologise for this. **Weirddave** ’s notion that the Palestinians should all become Jordanian is still insane, however. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/508 "2008-12-30T10:17:08Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > … So, yeah, you tolerate people on land that USED TO BE yours because the alternative is worse. At some point you have to give up on the past and just move on and accept that you aren’t going to get that back. In this case it’s question whether that day’s arrived. US in decline. Evidence and information is now freely available. These things bode ill for a state aged a fragile 60. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/509 "2008-12-30T10:20:59Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > If we’re so intent on “Holocausting” the Palestinians, then why are there still so damn many of them? … Overt is not practical, hence the plan is genocide by stealth and degrees. **Weirddave** favors the ethnic cleansing route. Either way it’s a variation on softly, softly. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/510 "2008-12-30T10:25:13Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Personally, I don’t think the Hamas is sufficiently organized to plan the extermination of a pile of sandwiches, but I can only imagine that tensions would lessen if they dropped such rhetoric from their charter and official statements. The lie that will not die. Tell me, what is the appropriate level of death to deal to Israel for propagating this? ---
**Author:** ![Just](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4af34b/32.png) [@Just](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/511 "2008-12-30T10:34:35Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > Then you should understand that we are not talking about a bunch of people in a damp cellar, but a political party whose supporters make more than half of the population of the area. This is not a bad eighties movie with a cackling supervillain to take down. Right. These people support Hamas, they can deal with the consequences. It’s about time they learn cause and effect. They’re obviously slow learners. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/512 "2008-12-30T10:42:02Z")
> [@Just](#): > > Right. These people support Hamas, they can deal with the consequences. It’s about time they learn cause and effect. They’re obviously slow learners. Right. Now replace “Hamas” with “Likud” and imagine yourself wearing a beard and a turban while loading a makeshift rocket. See where I’m getting there? ---
**Author:** ![Just](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4af34b/32.png) [@Just](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/513 "2008-12-30T10:49:04Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > Right. Now replace “Hamas” with “Likud” and imagine yourself wearing a beard and a turban while loading a makeshift rocket. See where I’m getting there? Not really. The guy with a beard and turban and loading the makeshift rocket is sworn to the very destruction of Israel. He deliberately targets Israeli civilians to achieve this goal. The Israeli (Likud/Labour/Kadima/whatever) just wishes to see the rocket attacks stop. He targets Hamas members, not civilians, to achieve this goal. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/514 "2008-12-30T10:49:29Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I cordially and politely invite a cite supporting the “shifting ground” allegation above. Firstly: [QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] … The bluntly-stated goal of Hamas is … the extermination of its Jewish population. If Israel consents to become part of a Greater Palestine, is it not highly likely, or even inevitable, that Jews will at some point comprise a minority in a state where the leadership of the majority has said in no uncertain terms that their goal is to eliminate that minority? This is not an exaggeration of Hamas’s position. It’s in their charter. They’re PROUD of it. … [/QUOTE] Latterly: [QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] … It doesn’t contain the exact word “exterminate” (that is to say, this particular translation does not), but I take the intent to be a violent one, suggesting hunting Jews down, rooting them out from hiding paces, killing them… I don’t see how it takes a paranoid mindset to make the connection between this and a desire to exterminate. … [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/515 "2008-12-30T10:55:53Z")
> [@Just](#): > > The Israeli (Likud/Labour/Kadima/whatever) just wishes to see the rocket attacks stop. He targets Hamas members, not civilians, to achieve this goal. Yeah, I’m sure that not everyone in any Israeli political party is as hawkish as you, but it was you and your _"These people support Hamas, they can deal with the consequences. It’s about time they learn cause and effect._" attitude I was talking about, and how much it reminds me of the guys from the side you so fervently oppose. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/516 "2008-12-30T11:00:47Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > I was assuming that you were ascribing to the Israeli myth that everyone apart from the Jews in the region are foreign invaders. It never even occurred to me that non-Jews in the region were foreign invaders. Among the Jews, I guess vaguely the “invader” idea might apply to the Ashkenazim Jews who immigrated from Europe and the Americas over the last hundred years, but not the Sephardi Jews whose ancestry in the region goes back millenia. In any case, “foreign invader” isn’t something I’d consider relevant, unless it is an actual invasion with marching troops and tanks and whatnot, as has happened numerous times since 1948. > [@](#): > > **Weirddave** ’s notion that the Palestinians should all become Jordanian is still insane, however. I wouldn’t call it “insane”. “Incorrect” or “misleading” or “wrong-headed”, but Jordan conceivably could have annexed the West Bank at some point after 1948 or 1967, or even now (conceivably, though perhaps not likely or feasible). As far as I know, the cultural divide between Arabs on the East Bank and the West Bank are not enormous, or at least not more so than other populations that share a state. Probably less than English- and French-Canadians. If the West Bank does not become a state in its own right, annexation by Jordan could be a viable solution. I don’t see any reason to link Jordan to Palestinians who don’t live in the West Bank. Perhaps Egypt could annex the Gaza Strip, for example, if Gaza does not also seek autonomy. This annexation may also not be likely or feasible. If anything, I guess Israel used ancient tactics but not ancient results. In the old days if you conquered territory, you either slaughtered the local population, drove it away or assimilated/converted it. The Israelis did the conquering but not the resolving. All very simplistic, I admit, but the best I can do in an off-the-cuff post. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/517 "2008-12-30T11:03:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, to be fair it’s also a well-established figure of speech – in the plural or in the collective singular, i.e, “the Jew.” Even Martin Luther King spoke of “the Negro.” The distinction is that the evangelist John, and our friend **gobear** , are using “the Jews” and “the Pals” in a manner that associates the indefensible behavior of some members of the group, with the group as a whole. That’s different from referring to “the Jew” or “the Negro” to, for instance, describe problems shared by the group as a whole, and advocate a common response by its members. ---
**Author:** ![Just](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4af34b/32.png) [@Just](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/518 "2008-12-30T11:07:19Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > Yeah, I’m sure that not everyone in any Israeli political party is as hawkish as you, but it was you and your _"These people support Hamas, they can deal with the consequences. It’s about time they learn cause and effect._" attitude I was talking about, and how much it reminds me of the guys from the side you so fervently oppose. I honestly don’t understand why I would remind you of Hamas at all. Let me spell out my stance once again: I support Israel’s campaign on the Gaza strip, due to Hamas’s choice to end the cease fire and to fire rockets at Israel. I have nothing against the Palestinians as a whole, and I feel for the innocent victims on _both_ sides of this war. But Israel cannot just sit back and let Hamas believe that there will be no consequences for their actions. Cause and effect. Maybe eventually, the Palestinian civilians will also understand cause and effect, and will drop support for Hamas too - not that I’m holding my breath. But _this_ is the desired effect of Israel’s campaign: ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/fLIdxF-GHWw/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/fLIdxF-GHWw?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque No, not that her relatives are dying after being caught in the cross-fire, but that her people would be far better off without Hamas. Then maybe we would actually have a chance of returning to the negotiating table to lay out a two-state solution. Again, I’m not holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/519 "2008-12-30T11:13:55Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > > > Personally, I don’t think the Hamas is sufficiently organized to plan the extermination of a pile of sandwiches, but I can only imagine that tensions would lessen if they dropped such rhetoric from their charter and official statements. > > The lie that will not die. The [Hamas Charter](http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm) seems to suggest that they would like to see the complete obliteration of Israel. > [@The Charter of Allah: The Platform of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)](#): > > Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. > [@Hamas Charter; Article Seven](#): > > …the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); > [@Hamas Charter; Article Thirteen](#): > > There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game > [@Hamas Charter; Article Twenty](#): > > A society which confronts a vicious, Nazi-like enemy, who does not differentiate between man and woman, elder and young ought to be the first to adorn itself with this Islamic spirit… The Nazism of the Jews does not skip women and children, it scares everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/520 "2008-12-30T11:18:16Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > The [Hamas Charter](http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm) seems to suggest that they would like to see the complete obliteration of Israel. Maybe, but that’s not the subject. The subject is the oft-made claim of exterminating the Jews. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=27)