# Fuck Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 27, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867 "2008-12-27T19:30:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/521 "2008-12-30T11:20:37Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > In this case it’s question whether that day’s arrived. US in decline. Evidence and information is now freely available. These things bode ill for a state aged a fragile 60. If they reach their centenary year, I wonder what they wil be celebrating? ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/522 "2008-12-30T11:28:30Z")
> [@Just](#): > > I honestly don’t understand why I would remind you of Hamas at all. Let me spell out my stance once again Look, I’m going to do this reverse equivalence thing again, and I’ll do that because I believe it’s important to show how a complex situation shouldn’t be oversimplified in a “good vs. evil” narrative. Stay with me here: > [@Just](#): > > I support Israel’s campaign on the Gaza strip, due to Hamas’s choice to end the cease fire and to fire rockets at Israel. Yes, and Hamas supporters are all for Hamas bombing Israel because they believe Israel never followed the cease fire agreements. And that’s what the Just from an alternative dimension where he grew up in an Arab country is saying. > [@Just](#): > > But Israel cannot just sit back and let Hamas believe that there will be no consequences for their actions. Just switch Israel and Hamas there. Same argument you are using to bomb Gaza was used a week ago to bomb Israel. > [@Just](#): > > Maybe eventually, the Palestinian civilians will also understand cause and effect, and will drop support for Hamas too Exactly like the intention of Hama’s leadership was for Israel to make a new peace treaty. None of the sides is throwing bombs just because they are bored. ---
**Author:** ![Just](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4af34b/32.png) [@Just](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/523 "2008-12-30T11:41:25Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > Look, I’m going to do this reverse equivalence thing again, and I’ll do that because I believe it’s important to show how a complex situation shouldn’t be oversimplified in a “good vs. evil” narrative. Stay with me here: And I’m saying that there _isn’t_ a reverse equivalence. This is not to say that the Israelis are perfect and haven’t done anything wrong at any point in their history, but really, when one side is aiming at civilians and is sworn to Israel’s destruction, and the other side has just been trying to get rocket attacks to stop by targeting Hamas members, “good vs evil” is pretty damn close. > [@](#): > > Yes, and Hamas supporters are all for Hamas bombing Israel because they believe Israel never followed the cease fire agreements. And that’s what the Just from an alternative dimension where he grew up in an Arab country is saying. It really doesn’t matter what Hamas believes when it is sworn to Israel’s destruction. If these were moderates we were talking about, it would be a different story. Hamas is as extremist as it comes. They were always going to find a reason to fire rockets at Israel. > [@](#): > > Just switch Israel and Hamas there. Same argument you are using to bomb Gaza was used a week ago to bomb Israel. Hamas wants to destroy Israel completely, not just demonstrate “cause and effect”. Can’t switch Israel and Hamas at all. > [@](#): > > Exactly like the intention of Hama’s leadership was for Israel to make a new peace treaty. None of the sides is throwing bombs just because they are bored. Cite for that? Read Hamas’s charter as quoted by Waenara. They do not want to live side-by-side with Israel. They want to destroy Israel. Really, it is as simple as that. Until the Palestinians reject Hamas, there is no chance for peace. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/524 "2008-12-30T11:49:26Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Tell me, what is the appropriate level of death to deal to Israel for propagating this? I honestly can’t figure out how to parse this sentence. I’ll take another look at it later in case I can understand it then. > [@Sevastopol](#): > > Firstly: Latterly: Okay, so the word “exterminate” is not in the Hamas charter. Lots of similar words are, though, to take up the slack. Hamas Charter preamble: “Israel will exist and will continue to exist [_cool - they recognize reality_] until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it [_d’oh!_]” Article 6: Generously gaurantees freedom and protection for followers of all religions, as long as it’s under the “wing of Islam”. Wouldn’t fill _me_ with confidence, were I a Jew in what Hamas see as the eventual Greater Palestine. Article 7: Describes the struggle agasint “Zionist invaders” and cheerfully quotes Mohamed: “The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” Article 13: Dismisses idea of “so-called peaceful solutions”. Article 17: Spells out Zionist role in media manipulation and secret organizations, all to corrupt Muslim women. Article 20: Likens Jews to Nazis. Article 22: Similar to Article 17 in describing Jewish control of the media and manipulation of world events, including behind “behind” the two world wars, the second of which was particuarly profitable for them, apparantly. Article 28: Zionists are behind “the drug trade and alcoholism”. Further, “We should not forget to remind every Moslem that when the Jews conquered the Holy City in 1967, they stood on the threshold of the Aqsa Mosque and proclaimed that “Mohammed is dead, and his descendants are all women.”” I’m a little curious if this can be cited. It doesn’t sound like a very Jewish thing to say. Even further, “Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. “May the cowards never sleep.”” There’s more, but I’m tired of reading it. And this is just the Charter; it doesn’t even touch on the day-to-day propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/525 "2008-12-30T12:05:48Z")
> [@Just](#): > > And I’m saying that there _isn’t_ a reverse equivalence. This is not to say that the Israelis are perfect and haven’t done anything wrong at any point in their history, but really, when one side is aiming at civilians and is sworn to Israel’s destruction, and the other side has just been trying to get rocket attacks to stop by targeting Hamas members, “good vs evil” is pretty damn close. Just like before, i wasn’t talking _at all_ about Israel, but about **you**. Your justifications and the way you express them are the ones i’m equating. > [@Just](#): > > It really doesn’t matter what Hamas believes when it is sworn to Israel’s destruction. Again, you are oversimplifying a very complex issue. Hamas is a political organization with different factions and opinions, some of which do like you in reverse and talk about how pureley evil is Israel. You are not helping by treating this like a G.I. Joe episode. > [@Just](#): > > Cite for that? Um… The news? Fine, give me a sec… From: > **[BBC NEWS | Middle East | Are Israel's war aims achievable?](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7803176.stm)** > > The current battle, while bloody, is not the final reckoning between Israel and Hamas, says the BBC's Jonathan Marcus. _“What prompted this upsurge in fighting was, paradoxically, a battle to determine the conditions of a new truce. Hamas has been very unhappy with the way things worked last time.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/526 "2008-12-30T12:14:59Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I honestly can’t figure out how to parse this sentence. He appears to be suggesting that Hamas should respond to “lies” about them seeking to destroy Israel by killing Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/527 "2008-12-30T12:20:35Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > He appears to be suggesting that Hamas should respond to “lies” about them seeking to destroy Israel by killing Israelis. Well, I’m not sure Hamas has ever needed an excuse. I’ll just let this one go. ---
**Author:** ![Just](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4af34b/32.png) [@Just](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/528 "2008-12-30T12:34:29Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > Just like before, i wasn’t talking _at all_ about Israel, but about **you**. Your justifications and the way you express them are the ones i’m equating. > > Again, you are oversimplifying a very complex issue. Hamas is a political organization with different factions and opinions, some of which do like you in reverse and talk about how pureley evil is Israel. You are not helping by treating this like a G.I. Joe episode. I really don’t think I’m over-simplifying at all. I personally want to see a two-state solution, and I don’t think that will ever happen with Hamas in power. And I don’t know what this “G.I. Joe” crap is about - I just want Israel to inflict as much damage as possible on Hamas - much like, I’m sure, the average Israeli citizen. I don’t know where you get “different factions and opinions” from either. Hamas has been pretty consistent in its comments/propaganda. They may be willing to negotiate a cease fire behind the scenes with Israel, but this is simply to buy themselves time to prepare for future attacks. They have made their aims clear, it is obvious that with them in power there is no chance for peace, and they need to be removed. You’ll tell me that that is again over-simplified, but I don’t think it is. Any lulls in violence between Israel and Hamas in the past have simply been to serve both sides aims for temporary reprieves from the violence - in Hamas’s case, to re-build arms for later attacks. > [@](#): > > Um… The news? Fine, give me a sec… > From: > > [BBC NEWS | Middle East | Are Israel's war aims achievable?](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7803176.stm) > > _“What prompted this upsurge in fighting was, paradoxically, a battle to determine the conditions of a new truce. Hamas has been very unhappy with the way things worked last time.”_ Fair enough, although there are other articles out there, such as [this one,](http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-12/24/content_10554767.htm) that say that Hamas was not interested in another truce. To me, it doesn’t matter - no Hamas truce is ever going to result in a two-state solution and actual peace. Here’s [another article](http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2008/me_hamas0734_11_23.asp) that might interest you, and which I just came across while googling for the above article (note that it’s dated Nov 24): > [@](#): > > The Hamas regime is not conerned that Israel will mount a major military invasion of the Gaza Strip, despite daily Palestinian missile strikes. > > Hamas sources said the Izzedin Kassam military wing has concluded that the government of Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert would tolerate daily missile, mortar and rocket strikes on the Jewish state. They said Israel’s response would be minimal as long as casualties remain low, Middle East Newsline reported. Tolerate daily missiles! Absurd, of course. It also quotes Hamas as saying that the decision to accept the truce in June '08 was “based on operational need, the damaging Israeli attacks…”. Says it all really. They don’t accept truces out of the goodness of their hearts, they do it because they don’t have a choice. These truces will never result in peace. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/529 "2008-12-30T14:35:38Z")
Maybe someone could answer this for me: Going back to the formation of modern Jordan, and keeping in mind the origional 2 state solution which could have been had then, what was what became Jordan in that 2 state solution, hmmm? Who annexed the West Bank in 1950 and controlled it until losing it in the 6 day war? Here’s an idea: next time you meet a Palestinian, ask them for a peek at their passport and report back to me what country issues it, m’kay? Before you make judgments about my sanity, I suggest you take the time to learn the history of the region and peoples involved. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/530 "2008-12-30T15:02:11Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Maybe someone could answer this for me: Going back to the formation of modern Jordan, and keeping in mind the origional 2 state solution which could have been had then, what was what became Jordan in that 2 state solution, hmmm? Who annexed the West Bank in 1950 and controlled it until losing it in the 6 day war? Here’s an idea: next time you meet a Palestinian, ask them for a peek at their passport and report back to me what country issues it, m’kay? Before you make judgments about my sanity, I suggest you take the time to learn the history of the region and peoples involved. I know my fucking history you raving lunatic. Why don’t you try to learn some geography. You said this about ALL Palestinians: > [@](#): > > The fact of the matter is that they are Jordanians Even if we were discussing the West Bank, and not Gaza, your argument is stupid. As it is I stand by my accusation of insanity. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/531 "2008-12-30T15:10:25Z")
Well, you know how to froth at the mouth without contributing anything to the discussion, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/532 "2008-12-30T15:44:36Z")
Eleven pages and still no solution. The Gazans have one though. Its their final solution. Just keep up the mayhem. History has proven that they will survive every rocket and suicide bombing in Israel and every time, if the world falls silent, just ratchet up the attacks until Israel responds violently and the world comes back with condemnation of Israel. In time, the world will see how awful the Israelis are and stop the economic support the world gives Israel. If anyone thinks there is another solution for Israelis short of a mass migration into the US they are deluded. All they can do is pare down the leadership infrastructure and weapons supply of Gaza to keep the situation tolerable. Thats okay with the Gazans as well as they can continue their sport of rocket target practice on Israelis while rearming and without any concern on the part of the world. If only the world, at least the western part of the world would just stay out of this fight, just maybe the Gazan’s will see folly in their objective to wipe out Israelis and sue for peace. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/533 "2008-12-30T15:45:38Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > The distinction is that the evangelist John, and our friend **gobear** , are using “the Jews” and “the Pals” in a manner that associates the indefensible behavior of some members of the group, with the group as a whole. That’s different from referring to “the Jew” or “the Negro” to, for instance, describe problems shared by the group as a whole, and advocate a common response by its members. It’s a plural noun, like “The Americans”, “The Presbyterians” or “The stamp-collectors”. And yes, you can attribute actions and attitudes to a group of people. “Americans are warmongers.” Well, not all of us are, but even you and I, who oppose our involvement in Iraq and detest Bush and Cheney, still live here and pay our taxes and participate in the system, so we don’t get to say “Some Americans are warmongers.” Like it or not, our government represents our nation to the world, and unless we are willing to leave the country or to take up arms in rebellion, we have to bear the burden of being associated with an evil regime. Similarly, there is no significant Palestinian peace faction, and the Palestinians overwhelmingly voted for Hamas, who has have openly stated again and again that the Jews of Israel must be wiped out. There may well be a small peace faction that is unheard, but to say that only a few Palestinians wish to destroy Israel is simply false. Of course, I’m talking to the same people who exculpated the Nazis for the Holocaust because “Some Nazis opposed Hitler’s genocide, so blaming all Nazis for engineering the Holocaust is bigoted.” ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/534 "2008-12-30T15:59:07Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Well, you know how to froth at the mouth without contributing anything to the discussion, that’s for sure. And your answer to the point I’m making? Let me try again, with less froth. We’ll start by assuming that when you claimed _all_ the Palestinians were really Jordanian, you meant to refer only to the 2.5 million in the West Bank. We’ll also leave aside that if you are claiming that Palestinian is a recent concept, and therefore irrelevant, then the same applies not only to Jordanian, but also to Israeli. I’m still unclear on your plan, however. Do you think that these 2.5 million people should all be moved into present day Jordan? Or that Jordan should reoccupy the West Bank? Let me know. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/535 "2008-12-30T16:59:57Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > It’s a plural noun, like “The Americans”, “The Presbyterians” or “The stamp-collectors”. And yes, you can attribute actions and attitudes to a group of people. Sure you can. And you can be an idiot, most of the time. > [@](#): > > “Americans are warmongers.” Well, not all of us are, but even you and I, who oppose our involvement in Iraq and detest Bush and Cheney, still live here and pay our taxes and participate in the system, so we don’t get to say “Some Americans are warmongers.” Sure, we do. We can even say “Bush is a warmonger.” Was that hard? > [@](#): > > Like it or not, our government represents our nation to the world, and unless we are willing to leave the country or to take up arms in rebellion, we have to bear the burden of being associated with an evil regime. Not really. People in France or Sweden or wherever aren’t usually going to assume you’re a warmonger because you’re an American. > [@](#): > > Similarly, there is no significant Palestinian peace faction, and the Palestinians overwhelmingly voted for Hamas, who has have openly stated again and again that the Jews of Israel must be wiped out. And you know this was the basis of their voting, how? I mean, by all indications, Arafat’s party was corrupt and incapable of doing the stuff you’d hope a government could be competent in. People everywhere are willing to ignore ideology and vote the bastards out if their level of fuckupitude starts affecting their daily lives. Now I don’t know that this is why Hamas won that big win. But you haven’t given evidence that Hamas’ win means what you say it means. > [@](#): > > There may well be a small peace faction that is unheard, but to say that only a few Palestinians wish to destroy Israel is simply false. Did I say that? Oh, goodness me, I didn’t. > [@](#): > > Of course, I’m talking to the same people who exculpated the Nazis for the Holocaust because “Some Nazis opposed Hitler’s genocide, so blaming all Nazis for engineering the Holocaust is bigoted.” Can I ask a question, since this is the Pit? You didn’t used to be so full of stupid. What happened? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/536 "2008-12-30T18:06:23Z")
A hypothetical- Let’s assume the PoliSci Pixie waves her wand, & magically creates a Palestinian homeland…POOF! 1. How long before the Palestinians turn on one another? And would it be worse than, say, the French Terror? 2)How long before their Brothers In Islam invade, from one or more neighboring countries, & conquer the P State outright? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/537 "2008-12-30T18:24:48Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Can I ask a question, since this is the Pit? You didn’t used to be so full of stupid. What happened? If contradicting your puerile false equivalence of Israeli self-defense with Palestinian terrorism makes me stupid, then I am happy to bear the label. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/538 "2008-12-30T18:29:27Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > A hypothetical- > > Let’s assume the PoliSci Pixie waves her wand, & magically creates a Palestinian homeland…POOF! I presume you mean “gives them full rights to live in the places they already lived”? > [@](#): > > 1. How long before the Palestinians turn on one another? And would it be worse than, say, the French Terror? > > 2)How long before their Brothers In Islam invade, from one or more neighboring countries, & conquer the P State outright? I think I like you, from posts I remember. But, really, what on earth are you talking about. “French Terror”? “Their Brothers in Islam”? You need to explain. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/539 "2008-12-30T18:35:32Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > And your answer to the point I’m making? > > Let me try again, with less froth. > > We’ll start by assuming that when you claimed _all_ the Palestinians were really Jordanian, you meant to refer only to the 2.5 million in the West Bank. > > We’ll also leave aside that if you are claiming that Palestinian is a recent concept, and therefore irrelevant, then the same applies not only to Jordanian, but also to Israeli. > > I’m still unclear on your plan, however. Do you think that these 2.5 million people should all be moved into present day Jordan? Or that Jordan should reoccupy the West Bank? Let me know. I merely suggested that in searching for a solution to the problem, a possible starting point would be to recognize that a “two state solution” has already been (poorly) implemented, and that rather than demanding the creation of a third (inherently weak and unstable) state, it might be more productive to look at possibly integrating the displaced Palestinian population into the state that was originally intended for them, which could include things like Jordan assuming control of the West Bank, having some Palestinians absorbed into the larger Jordanian population as a whole, recognition of Israel and other terms open for negotiation. It’s not an instant cure all, and it doesn’t solve Gaza, which is not contiguous to Jordan, but IMO it would be a good place to start, has a strong basis in historical reality, and is not at all simply “insane” to suggest. Right now, the conflict doesn’t even have a realistic starting point from which a solution might be found. I think there are far worse starting points than what I’ve suggested here. An independent Palestinian state would be weaker than a newborn kitten, either economically dependent on Israel or completely destitute. It would be militarily helpless against future attacks, from wherever. As a part of a thriving Jordan, none of these conditions need apply. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/540 "2008-12-30T18:45:49Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > I presume you mean “gives them full rights to live in the places they already lived”? > > I think I like you, from posts I remember. But, really, what on earth are you talking about. “French Terror”? “Their Brothers in Islam”? You need to explain. The Terror refers to a period following the French Revolution. A time of political purges & reckless executions of guilty & innocent alike. Nobody’s life was worth a nickel. As for brothers in Islam, I refer to their co-religionists, who tended to hate the Palestinians’ guts before modern Israel existed, will not admit them to their countries, & do little but fuel the fire. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=28)