# Fuck Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 27, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867 "2008-12-27T19:30:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/581 "2008-12-31T16:23:53Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > Why? Because it’s the kind of thing you would expect a Hamas leader to say? Pretty much. > [@](#): > > Why? What is your expectation based on? A lifetime of experience. Let me ask you this: Do you agree that the kind of person who would deliberately launch mortar shells targeting civilians is probably the kind of person who is willing to hide behind civilians? > [@](#): > > And even if it does truthfully represent what it “purports” to be, what’s your point? Hiding behind civilians is contemptible, but doesn’t justify the killing of said civilians. I would say that it depends on the costs and benefits. Every war the United States has been in in the past 100 years has resulted in the deaths of civilians. Are you saying that none of those wars were justified? If not, then what does justify killing of civiliians? > [@](#): > > I agree, but I don’t think you understand what sceptical means. Actually I understand better than most. If information is worthy of skepticism, I am skeptical even if it supports my side in a debate. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/582 "2008-12-31T16:36:08Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > They put out pro-Zionist propaganda. That’s their remit. > > I agree that they are clever, and that it’s about spin and presentation rather than out right lies, but their stuff really isn’t to be trusted at face value. See, this is what I don’t get. I know full well they are not a disinterested news site. They have a point to make. That doesn’t bug me, because they make no secret of it. They present little in the way of “spin”, because what they do is simply translate stuff other people wrote. What they do is not “spin”, but “cherry-picking”. Now, cherry-picking can be really misleading, if what is cherry-picked is really not representative of the whole - say, one obsure editorial somewhere says something offensive, whereas hundreds are saying reasonable stuff. Is there evidence that this is what they do - post artcles and videos that provide a misleading and false picture of journalism in the ME? If not, simply dismissing them because they are ‘for the other side’ is an ad-hom. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/583 "2008-12-31T16:54:15Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Do you agree that the kind of person who would deliberately launch mortar shells targeting civilians is probably the kind of person who is willing to hide behind civilians? I suppose there is a loose correlation. So what? Right now it is Israel who is killing civilians by the dozen. Where are we going with this? That people who kill civilians are bad people? Yes. So? . . . . ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/584 "2008-12-31T16:58:47Z")
The problem with the MEMRI is that they present, baldfaced and in all it’s ugly truth, documentation of attitudes and actions that most of the people on the left like to pretend don’t exist. It’s very much a “truth hurts” kind of thing. While I admit they have specific POV, and tend to present things that support that POV, I have never, ever seen any proof that they falsify in any way what they release. That leaves the terror apologists with the uncomfortable task of explaining away the ugly truth. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/585 "2008-12-31T17:11:41Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Now, cherry-picking can be really misleading, if what is cherry-picked is really not representative of the whole - say, one obsure editorial somewhere says something offensive, whereas hundreds are saying reasonable stuff. Even cherry picking is not necessarily dishonest – it depends on the circumstances. For example, suppose David Duke makes 100 statements along the lines of “I’m not an extremist, I just think affirmative action is unfair to white Americans” and 2 statements along the lines of “I think we need to kick blacks and Jews out of America.” One could reasonably conclude that David Duke is probably a racist and an extremist. Similarly, I’m inclined to believe that Hamas really does hide behind civillians, even if they usually deny it. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/586 "2008-12-31T17:46:43Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > They put out pro-Zionist propaganda. That’s their remit. > > I agree that they are clever, and that it’s about spin and presentation rather than out right lies, but their stuff really isn’t to be trusted at face value. So you’re saying that, as a matter of principle, any evidence submitted by interested parties is automatically tainted? Tell me - are you familiar with how your legal system works? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/587 "2008-12-31T18:06:30Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > The problem with the MEMRI is that they present, baldfaced and in all it’s ugly truth, documentation of attitudes and actions that most of the people on the left like to pretend don’t exist. It’s very much a “truth hurts” kind of thing. While I admit they have specific POV, and tend to present things that support that POV, I have never, ever seen any proof that they falsify in any way what they release. That leaves the terror apologists with the uncomfortable task of explaining away the ugly truth. I’d be interested in specifics on two counts: 1. An example or two of these painful truths that “most of the people on the left like to pretend don’t exist.” 2. Some names of “the terror apologists,” just to give us an idea of who you’re talking about, with some for-instances of their acting as apologists for terror. Otherwise that’s just a bunch of self-satisfied noise. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/588 "2008-12-31T18:42:32Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Even cherry picking is not necessarily dishonest – it depends on the circumstances. > > For example, suppose David Duke makes 100 statements along the lines of “I’m not an extremist, I just think affirmative action is unfair to white Americans” and 2 statements along the lines of “I think we need to kick blacks and Jews out of America.” One could reasonably conclude that David Duke is probably a racist and an extremist. > > Similarly, I’m inclined to believe that Hamas really does hide behind civillians, even if they usually deny it. True enough. I was thinking of the specific example of media trawling. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/589 "2008-12-31T19:32:31Z")
[SourceWatch analysis of MEMRI.](http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute) SLAPP suit against Juan Cole?! ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/590 "2008-12-31T19:37:57Z")
Well, you have to admit, RT, that stereotypes usually don’t just come out of nowhere. I think the far left worked very hard to earn its repuation for tree-hugging, hand-wringing denial — especially when it comes to things like human conflict. There does tend to be a certain doormat nature to far left diplomacy, a willingness to give up the farm to avoid confrontation. I think that sort of mentality just segues naturally to an irrational trust of nefarious people, with the eternal hope that they will come around after proper education and patient tolerance. I think the exercise of naming names is rather pointless since anyone taking the counterpoint view can always disclaim with nothing more than a declaration that “Mr Smith doesn’t impress ME as the sort of person you’re describing.” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/591 "2008-12-31T20:01:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [SourceWatch analysis of MEMRI.](http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute) > > SLAPP suit against Juan Cole?! SourceWatch? They’re biased. I don’t believe their spin. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/592 "2008-12-31T20:12:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > SourceWatch? They’re biased. I don’t believe their spin. What bias? Either what they say is true or it’s not. What in that page do you claim is not true? It is no good to just totally disqualify anyone. Better show exactly where they are not being truthful. Or are you saying the entire page is entirely made up? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/593 "2008-12-31T20:16:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [SourceWatch analysis of MEMRI.](http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute) > > SLAPP suit against Juan Cole?! That cite’s analysis of MEMRI veracity in translation: > [@](#): > > **Issues of reliability and veracity** > > MEMRI is operated by a group closely associated with the Israeli intelligence organizations. Now, in an article in Haaretz, we find that the Israeli Army has sought to plant stories about “terrorism” in the press, and > > “Psychological warfare officers were in touch with Israeli journalists covering the Arab world, gave them translated articles from Arab papers (which were planted by the [Israel Defense Forces] IDF) and pressed the Israeli reporters to publish the same news here.” --Amos Harel, IDF reviving psychological warfare unit, Haaretz, January 25, 2005. > > This should raise a question or two about the reliability and veracity of the stories peddled by MEMRI. > > This is what Prof. Juan Cole had to say about this: > > "So is MEMRI, which translates articles from the Arabic press into English for thousands of US subscribers, in any way involved in all this? Its director formerly served in… Israeli military intelligence. How much of what we “know” from “Arab sources” about “Hizbullah terrorism” was simply made up by this fantasy factory in Tel Aviv? > > As someone who reads the Arabic press quite a lot, this sort of revelation is extremely disturbing. > > I also saw an allegation that British military intelligence had planted stories in the US press about Saddam’s Iraq. > > You begin to wonder how much of what you think you know is just propaganda manufactured by some bored colonel. No wonder post-Baath Iraq looks nothing like what we were led to to expect by the press, including the Arab press!" [3] > > Another assessment: > > If you rely on MEMRI for your knowledge of Arab discourse, you are really not informed. Arab public opinion, based on MEMRI’s releases, is reduced or caricatured to either Bin Laden fans or Bush fans, while Arab public opinion is mosty a fan of neither people. --As’ad AbuKhalil [4] > > Although widely used in the mainstream media as a source of information on the Arab world, it is as trustworthy as Julius Streicher’s Der Sturmer was on the Jewish world. --Norman Finkelstein [5] In short, the allegation here is that Israel is planting the stories and videos that MEMRI is translating. It is all a big conspiracy … I’m sorry but that is just not credible. Israel planting rabidly anti-Jewish and anti-Israeli pieces in Arab and Persian media - some of which is state-run? For the purpose of making Arabs look bad? And not just one or two, but hundreds or thousands? Does it not occur to anyone writing for that site that Arab editors, government and public read this stuff - and if they don’t approve, would say something to that effect? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/594 "2008-12-31T20:16:20Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Well, you have to admit, RT, that stereotypes usually don’t just come out of nowhere. I think the far left worked very hard to earn its repuation for tree-hugging, hand-wringing denial — especially when it comes to things like human conflict. There does tend to be a certain doormat nature to far left diplomacy, a willingness to give up the farm to avoid confrontation. I think that sort of mentality just segues naturally to an irrational trust of nefarious people, with the eternal hope that they will come around after proper education and patient tolerance. I think the exercise of naming names is rather pointless since anyone taking the counterpoint view can always disclaim with nothing more than a declaration that “Mr Smith doesn’t impress ME as the sort of person you’re describing.” I think the far right worked very hard to earn its repuation for being heartless and ruthless and for not caring in the least about anyone but themselves to the point of sacrificing human lives if it suits their interests. Hey, this game of painting with a broad brush is fun! Who shall we do next? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/595 "2008-12-31T20:18:24Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > In short, the allegation here is that Israel is planting the stories and videos that MEMRI is translating. It is all a big conspiracy … I must have missed that. Where does it say that? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/596 "2008-12-31T20:21:09Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > I think the far right worked very hard to earn its repuation for being heartless and ruthless and for not caring in the least about anyone but themselves to the point of sacrificing human lives if it suits their interests. > > Hey, this game of painting with a broad brush is fun! > > Who shall we do next? Hopefull, what you will do next is come to an understanding of one another, realizing that much of what you dehumanize each other about is exaggerated nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/597 "2008-12-31T20:24:27Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > SourceWatch? They’re biased. I don’t believe their spin. 😃 Touche. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/598 "2008-12-31T20:27:41Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > I must have missed that. Where does it say that? Right here: "So is MEMRI, which translates articles from the Arabic press into English for thousands of US subscribers, in any way involved in all this? Its director formerly served in… Israeli military intelligence. How much of what we “know” from “Arab sources” about “Hizbullah terrorism” was simply made up by this fantasy factory in Tel Aviv? " ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/599 "2008-12-31T20:37:32Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > I must have missed that. Where does it say that? Right in the part I quoted: > [@](#): > > MEMRI is operated by a group closely associated with the Israeli intelligence organizations. Now, in an article in Haaretz, we find that the Israeli Army has sought to plant stories about “terrorism” in the press, and > > “Psychological warfare officers were in touch with Israeli journalists covering the Arab world, gave them translated articles from Arab papers (which were planted by the [Israel Defense Forces] IDF) and pressed the Israeli reporters to publish the same news here.” --Amos Harel, IDF reviving psychological warfare unit, Haaretz, January 25, 2005. > > \*\*This should raise a question or two about the reliability and veracity of the stories peddled by MEMRI. \*\* > > This is what Prof. Juan Cole had to say about this: > > "So is MEMRI, which translates articles from the Arabic press into English for thousands of US subscribers, in any way involved in all this? Its director formerly served in… Israeli military intelligence. **How much of what we “know” from “Arab sources” about “Hizbullah terrorism” was simply made up by this fantasy factory in Tel Aviv?** Emphasis added. The first section of emphasis is the work of whoever wrote the site’s text. They then quote with approval this Prof. Cole, who says the same thing - in the form of a rhetorical question. The message is obvious: Israel is planting stuff, MEMRI translates it. You can’t rely on their translations, not because they are bad translations of real articles, but because the articles themselves are “…made up by this fantasy factory in Tel Aviv”. As I’ve said, this is quite absurd given that MEMRI translates literally hundreds if not thousands of articles, I’m amazed that they expect anyone to seriously believe it (or that this cite could be posted here as a serious refutation for the veracity of MEMRI as a source). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/600 "2008-12-31T20:44:16Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Right here: > > "So is MEMRI, which translates articles from the Arabic press into English for thousands of US subscribers, in any way involved in all this? Its director formerly served in… Israeli military intelligence. How much of what we “know” from “Arab sources” about “Hizbullah terrorism” was simply made up by this fantasy factory in Tel Aviv? " Do they have any examples of direct quotes in Arabic from one of these press sources, a biased MEMRI translation, and a more correct translation? Showing a problem would be more compelling than hinting there might be a problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=31)