# Fuck Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 27, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867 "2008-12-27T19:30:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/601 "2008-12-31T22:04:18Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I think that sort of mentality just segues naturally to an irrational trust of nefarious people, with the eternal hope that they will come around after proper education and patient tolerance. Which party cozied up to Saddam Hussein? Pinochet? The Shah? Jonas Savimbi? Somoza? Roberto D’Aubisson? And other strongmen and tinhorn dictators too numerous to mention? Who sold arms to Iran, and to dozens of almost-as-odious Third World dictators? Gimme a fucking break. > [@](#): > > I think the exercise of naming names is rather pointless since anyone taking the counterpoint view can always disclaim with nothing more than a declaration that “Mr Smith doesn’t impress ME as the sort of person you’re describing.” Naming names at least gives some definition to the discussion. No specificity = no meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/602 "2008-12-31T22:08:17Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > What bias? Either what they say is true or it’s not. > > * * * > > It is no good to just totally disqualify anyone. Better show exactly where they are not being truthful. My point exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/603 "2008-12-31T22:24:25Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Which party cozied up to Saddam Hussein? Pinochet? The Shah? Jonas Savimbi? Somoza? Roberto D’Aubisson? And other strongmen and tinhorn dictators too numerous to mention? Who sold arms to Iran, and to dozens of almost-as-odious Third World dictators? Both parties? Didn’t FDR say of the elder Somoza, “He may be a bastard, but at least he’s our bastard”? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/604 "2008-12-31T22:47:48Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Both parties? > > Didn’t FDR say of the elder Somoza, “He may be a bastard, but at least he’s our bastard”? I had heard that – “He’s our son-of-a-bitch” – in connection with [Trujillo;](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafael_Trujillo) but it appears the formulation may be [older than that.](http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=8204) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/605 "2008-12-31T22:50:13Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > What bias? Either what they say is true or it’s not. What in that page do you claim is not true? > > It is no good to just totally disqualify anyone. Better show exactly where they are not being truthful. > > Or are you saying the entire page is entirely made up? My guess is **Alessan** was being ironic and (for added effect) left out the winkey-smiley. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/606 "2008-12-31T22:51:34Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Which party cozied up to Saddam Hussein? Pinochet? The Shah? Jonas Savimbi? Somoza? Roberto D’Aubisson? And other strongmen and tinhorn dictators too numerous to mention? Who sold arms to Iran, and to dozens of almost-as-odious Third World dictators? Both of them. The Pubs might arguably be the worse offenders, but neither party has clean hands in this regard. Look at LBJ’s support of the utterly corrupt Thieu regime, and Carter’s support of the Shah. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/607 "2009-01-01T00:08:19Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Right in the part I quoted: > > Emphasis added. > > The first section of emphasis is the work of whoever wrote the site’s text. They then quote with approval this Prof. Cole, who says the same thing - in the form of a rhetorical question. > > The message is obvious: Israel is planting stuff, MEMRI translates it. You can’t rely on their translations, not because they are bad translations of real articles, but because the articles themselves are “…made up by this fantasy factory in Tel Aviv”. > > As I’ve said, this is quite absurd given that MEMRI translates literally hundreds if not thousands of articles, I’m amazed that they expect anyone to seriously believe it (or that this cite could be posted here as a serious refutation for the veracity of MEMRI as a source). Thanks. This is a really complex area and I am not even going to try to form an opinion although in general Juan Cole is someone I would trust. Still, I’d like to see more concrete accusations rather than vague statements without substance. I remember American military are forbidden from doing news-propaganda at home but they were recently rather easily getting around that by planting stories in Iraq and just letting the “free press” re-broadcast them in America. I am not qualified to have any opinion on MEMRI so I’ll have to leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/608 "2009-01-01T01:54:53Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > I remember American military are forbidden from doing news-propaganda at home but they were recently rather easily getting around that by planting stories in Iraq and just letting the “free press” re-broadcast them in America. And before one of the apologists shows up and demands a cite, [cite](http://articles.latimes.com/2005/nov/30/world/fg-infowar30). ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/609 "2009-01-01T06:43:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And before one of the apologists shows up and demands a cite, [cite](http://articles.latimes.com/2005/nov/30/world/fg-infowar30). yeah, that’s a new tactic, manipulating the media to serve one’s political ends… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/610 "2009-01-01T10:46:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Both of them. The Pubs might arguably be the worse offenders, but neither party has clean hands in this regard. Look at LBJ’s support of the utterly corrupt Thieu regime, and Carter’s support of the Shah. I’d say LBJ’s support of Thieu was basically overruled by the lefty protests of the late 1960s which led to the image of Dems that **Liberal** mentions. And Carter’s support for the Shah was pretty lukewarm, and the right for years afterwards attributed the fall of the Shah to Carter’s weak support. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/611 "2009-01-01T10:48:10Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > yeah, that’s a new tactic, manipulating the media to serve one’s political ends… > > :rolleyes: So when Congress passes a law outlawing something you are OK with the military or others in the government trying to skirt the spirit if not the letter of the law? Why have a Congress then? Why not just have the military ruling the country directly? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/612 "2009-01-01T11:16:20Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Which party cozied up to Saddam Hussein? Pinochet? The Shah? Jonas Savimbi? Somoza? Roberto D’Aubisson? I wouldn’t necessarily say that the names you’ve mentioned rise to the standard of our discussion. > [@](#): > > Naming names at least gives some definition to the discussion. Maybe not so much, as you can see. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/613 "2009-01-01T16:21:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Never happen, not from bombing them; last time I checked, the Palestinians are still human. And it’s human nature to want vengeance, and to strike back at oppression and abuse, which means that Hamas or a similar organization is the only one that will be politically acceptable to the Palestinians. Just as Hamas knew that the Israelis would inevitably retaliate for those rockets. > > Why would this be any more likely to break the Palestinians than the bombing of Britain by the Germans or that of Germany by the Allies broke the will of either side ? This sort of thing doesn’t WORK. It just kills innocents, increases anger, but without actually stopping your enemy from retaliating. The worst of both worlds. Note for reference that what DID work (for the Allies) was the invasion and conquest of the opposing nation. Are you suggesting that Israel should use this tactic against Hamas in Gaza? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/614 "2009-01-01T18:03:29Z")
> [@Bookkeeper](#): > > Note for reference that what DID work (for the Allies) was the invasion and conquest of the opposing nation. Are you suggesting that Israel should use this tactic against Hamas in Gaza? No; I’m just saying that what they ARE doing is useless. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/615 "2009-01-01T18:15:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No; I’m just saying that what they ARE doing is useless. Its not useless. Israel is destroying munitions and weakening Hamas to a point where after the ceasefire they will be able to tolerate a low level of rocket fire until such point where they’ll need to weaken Hamas and destroy their built up munitions again. There is no alternative short of carpet bombing the entire Gaza strip. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/616 "2009-01-01T18:20:58Z")
For those who advocate a proportionate response. Wasn’t the Dolittle raid on Japan a proportionate response to Pearl Harbour ? Think of the lives saved had the US stopped there. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/617 "2009-01-01T18:57:48Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Its not useless. > > Israel is destroying munitions and weakening Hamas to a point where after the ceasefire they will be able to tolerate a low level of rocket fire until such point where they’ll need to weaken Hamas and destroy their built up munitions again. > > There is no alternative short of carpet bombing the entire Gaza strip. They need to keep up pressure on Hamas’ supply routes, which may get touchy, re: Egypt’s Gaza border. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/618 "2009-01-02T00:35:07Z")
Perhaps a bit off-topic, but here’s a funny pic I saw: [http://up36.siz.co.il/up1/zlhdwtnzodde.jpg](http://up36.siz.co.il/up1/zlhdwtnzodde.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/619 "2009-01-02T00:56:10Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Perhaps a bit off-topic, but here’s a funny pic I saw: > > [http://up36.siz.co.il/up1/zlhdwtnzodde.jpg](http://up36.siz.co.il/up1/zlhdwtnzodde.jpg) Reminds me of: [http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp360/sgenetti77/moran-7512.jpg](http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp360/sgenetti77/moran-7512.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/620 "2009-01-02T00:57:39Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Reminds me of: [http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp360/sgenetti77/moran-7512.jpg](http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp360/sgenetti77/moran-7512.jpg) Lol. Thanks for the laugh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=32)