# Fuck Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 27, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867 "2008-12-27T19:30:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/81 "2008-12-27T22:56:50Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’d love to see peace in my lifetime. I just no longer believe it’s possible. OK. That is terribly depressing. What do you see as the outcome? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/82 "2008-12-27T23:00:10Z")
> [@Struan](#): > > OK. That is terribly depressing. What do you see as the outcome? Snce when does history have outcomes? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/83 "2008-12-27T23:01:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I was proposing alternatives to the status quo; indefinite perpetuation of it is excluded by definition. OK, but I don’t think your use of “intolerable” in your original post on the subject is objective. It might be intolerable to you, but it doesn’t seem to be for most Israelis. And they’re the ones that matter. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/84 "2008-12-27T23:03:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Snce when does history have outcomes? Frequently. WWII and the Cold War had definite outcomes. The Zionist movement had a definite outcome, which is Israel. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/85 "2008-12-27T23:05:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, but I don’t think your use of “intolerable” in your original post on the subject is objective. It might be intolerable to you, but it doesn’t seem to be for most Israelis. And they’re the ones that matter. The Israelis are “the ones that matter” here neither one bit more nor less than the Palestinians are “the ones that matter”; please bear that in mind. And the Israelis, who have the most **power** in the situation, should bear it in mind even more, whether the Pals do or not. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/86 "2008-12-27T23:16:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The Israelis are “the ones that matter” here neither one bit more nor less than the Palestinians are “the ones that matter”; please bear that in mind. Well, your argument began with your post #36 in which you were telling us what you thought the Israelis needed to do. So, yes, they are the ones that matter. > [@](#): > > And the Israelis, who have the most **power** in the situation, should bear it in mind even more, whether the Pals do or not. The “Pals” would be wise to bear that in mind, as well. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/87 "2008-12-27T23:17:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Actually, not many were killed or injured, as compared to the results of the Israeli attack. That’s what makes it disproportionate, and such great propaganda fodder for Hamas. It’s as if some Black Panther during the 60’s civil rights conflict had shot a cop, and the cops reacted by driving through black neighborhoods indiscriminately spraying the crowds and buildings with gunfire. Who would have come across looking better ? It’s not the same. Israel is trying to kill Hamas members, which is made more difficult by the fact that Hamas blends in with Palestinian society so well, and because Hamas isn’t careful about their launch sites, knowing full well that their own people will be killed in the Israeli retaliation. That’s hardly wanton killing, although it probably seems that way to the average Palestinian on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/88 "2008-12-27T23:22:02Z")
I’m curious, **BrainGlutton** , what part of my proposed alternative do you find unrealistic - That the Palestinians cast aside their religious extremism? That they accept that Israel is here to stay? Thay they realize that they’re not going to get everything they want? Which of the above you do believe the Palestinians to be incapable of? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/89 "2008-12-27T23:32:16Z")
I also wanted to add that while I am anti-Hamas and mostly pro-Israel, I am really beginning to question the amount of military aid we send to Israel anymore. I’m just not certain it’s in the USA’s strategic interests to do so. Other than sharing intelligence (and even then, Mossad has been caught spying on US numerous times) and development of new weapons technologies, what does Israel do for us, exactly? And please spare me the “only democracy in the Middle East” argument, because obviously that situation isn’t exactly inspiring Israel’s neighbors to follow suit. I mean no offense to **Alessan** and any other Israeli posters we may have, I value their opinions. At what point can Israel sustain itself militarily? Instead of just giving them money, why not sell them the weapons they need (which I am almost positive we do that, too)? And I also think that the Israeli lobby in our government (like AIPAC) is way too influential. And I resent the fact that anytime a politician asks questions like I am, accusations of antisemitism get thrown about. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/90 "2008-12-27T23:33:10Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’m curious, **BrainGlutton** , what part of my proposed alternative do you find unrealistic - > > That the Palestinians cast aside their religious extremism? > > That they accept that Israel is here to stay? > > Thay they realize that they’re not going to get everything they want? > > Which of the above you do believe the Palestinians to be incapable of? They are capable of none **without real inducement,** and not the kind provided by bombing; that just stokes their extremism and hatred. You need the carrot here, not the stick. If you let the Pals have either Israeli citizenship or a really independent state, they will continue to preach and think death to Israel while at the same time making the best of working within the new situation – which will require dealing with Jews in a civil and orderly way. What the Pals really want, even more than for the Jews to go away, is to not be so held down and hungry and poor and constantly endangered any more. Give them that – and there’s **no way** to give it to them without giving them a real share of political power in one form or another – and they’ll gradually mute their antisemitism, like the white-hating, “One Settler, One Bullet!” blacks in South Africa gradually grew quiet after all blacks got the vote. Look, the Pals are not going away. Killing them all or driving them all into other countries is as obviously inconceivable to you as it is to me. You’ll always have to live with them. You should at least be thinking about ways to **avoid** that 20 or 30 more years of war and oppression that you so baldly propose as an acceptable alternative. Preferably ways that do not depend on the other side having a sudden and uncharacteristic change of heart. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/91 "2008-12-27T23:42:01Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > What is the virtue of a proportionate response? “It isn’t virtuous, Mr. President. It’s all there is.” Sigh. Don’t you guys watch your West Wing? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/92 "2008-12-27T23:43:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Killing them all or driving them all into other countries is as obviously inconceivable to you as it is to me. You know, it’s funny…many of the neighboring Arab nations like to give lip service to championing the plight of the Palestinians within their rhetoric, but what aid and comfort do they give them, other than to pay them a ransom to the family members of a suicide bomber after he blows up some Jews in Tel Aviv? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/93 "2008-12-27T23:50:58Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > “It isn’t virtuous, Mr. President. It’s all there is.” > > Sigh. Don’t you guys watch your West Wing? I never really bought Leo’s argument, actually. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What the Pals really want, even more than for the Jews to go away, is to not be so held down and hungry and poor and constantly endangered any more. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/94 "2008-12-28T00:01:11Z")
Just out of curiosity, what would happen if the Palestinians in the West Bank just declared that they _were_ a sovereign nation at war with no-one and petitioned for U.N. membership? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/95 "2008-12-28T00:03:12Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Just out of curiosity, what would happen if the Palestinians in the West Bank just declared that they _were_ a sovereign nation at war with no-one and petitioned for U.N. membership? There would be an uproar I suppose, because Israel’s borders have expanded to include settlements in some of these areas, and Israel wouldn’t be exactly thrilled to be asked to give them up (although I understand they have made some concessions in this area fairly recently). ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/96 "2008-12-28T00:06:24Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That is incorrect. > > I have another two realistic alternatives - > > 1. To continue the conflict for a few more decades until circumstances change enough for a renewed chance of peace. Aren’t you here assuming as a given that Israel will keep the upper hand in the middle-east for the foreseeable future? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/97 "2008-12-28T00:12:23Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Aren’t you here assuming as a given that Israel will keep the upper hand in the middle-east for the foreseeable future? A nuclear-armed Iran will tip that balance. Presumably. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/98 "2008-12-28T00:12:41Z")
It’s good to see that racism, bigotry and advocacy of genocide and terrorism are still alive and well around here. I wouldn’t want think we were getting too liberal. > [@](#): > > Do you mind if I lob a few rockets in your general direction? After all, they won’t kill or injure you. If a bad guy takes a shot at you and misses, do you then have the right to kill his children and his neighbors and his neighbors’ children? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/99 "2008-12-28T00:13:43Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > A nuclear-armed Iran will tip that balance. Presumably. Let’s hope. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/100 "2008-12-28T00:15:05Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > IMO, Israel should have wiped them out a long time ago. Not sure why they’ve pussy-footed around. Wipe out whom, exactly? -If you meant the Hamas, please explain how you would proceed if you were in charge of Israel. -If you meant the Palestinians, you’re a wannabe mass-murderer and the average cockroach has more moral sense than you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=6)