# Fuck Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 27, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867 "2008-12-27T19:30:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/141 "2008-12-28T01:43:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As far as I can tell, this is simply a matter of two bands of homicidal fanatics pounding at each other, neither caring who dies in the process. Neither side is in the right I think. Actually, its one side having too much fun and doesn’t want to stop pounding while the other side keeps turning the other cheek until they can’t stand it any more and freaks out. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/142 "2008-12-28T01:48:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m not trying to kill anyone’s children and I didn’t initiate the sequence that began with my child getting killed and the ongoing threat that more of my children will be threatened and killed if I do nothing. If you support Israel’s actions then you support killing other people’s children, even though you said you would not support the same action if it would kill your own children. Why are your own children more special than Palestinian children? > [@](#): > > Besides, what’s the moral difference between killing children and adults, anyway? What a bizarre question. If you don’t know the answer to that, then nothing I say will change you. > [@](#): > > Try to kill, or would you kill? Is there a difference? I would try. I can’t know if I would succeed. > [@](#): > > Is there any moral value in trying to stop him without killing him, but inadvertently killing him anyway? I’m getting lost here. I would want to stop the bad guy without killing _[innocent people_. I don’t give a rat’s ass about killing the bad guy himself. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/143 "2008-12-28T01:48:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Because the innocents were not being held agaisnt their will. Then why don’t they run away from the rocket-launching fugitive? I’m sure Israel would appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/144 "2008-12-28T01:51:41Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Actually, its one side having too much fun and doesn’t want to stop pounding while the other side keeps turning the other cheek until they can’t stand it any more and freaks out. I see no evidence that the Israelis are “turning the other cheek”. They are quite easy to provoke, just like their opponents. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/145 "2008-12-28T01:53:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Then why don’t they run away from the rocket-launching fugitive? I’m sure Israel would appreciate it. I don’t know. What makes you think they even knew who the pot-shotters were? Are you actually trying to say they and their children deserved to die because they didn’t run away? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/146 "2008-12-28T01:55:31Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If you support Israel’s actions then you support killing other people’s children, even though you said you would not support the same action if it would kill your own children. Why are your own children more special than Palestinian children? Because my children have a parent that cares about them. The Palestinian children, not so much, else the rocket-launching guys would’ve stopped long ago because they have to know by now what the reaction will be. > [@](#): > > What a bizarre question. If you don’t know the answer to that, then nothing I say will change you. Just trying to isolate if the constant invoking of “children” is meant primarily as an appeal to emotion. After all, Israeli children get killed as well. > [@](#): > > Is there a difference? I would try. I can’t know if I would succeed. So you admit that in trying to stop someone from hurting your children, the outcome is uncertain? > [@](#): > > I’m getting lost here. I would want to stop the bad guy without killing _innocent people_. I don’t give a rat’s ass about killing the bad guy himself. So if the bad guy is torturing your child to death while hanging onto his own child (in fact, demonstrating to his child how heroic and fun it is to horrifically kill your child), that changes things? Does that get a helpless shrug out of you? ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/147 "2008-12-28T01:56:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Then you’re the same as he is. Nonsense..If someone is firing rockets at you and your family and neighbors, and you shoot back to stop them the blame rests solely on the shoulders of the guy who started shooting. If the “innocents” willfully act as shields, I don’t feel too sorry for them. They know the idiot is shooting from their building, they know there will be retaliation, if they can’t stop the guy they should at least get the hell out so they aren’t a human shield. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/148 "2008-12-28T01:58:00Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Are you actually trying to say they and their children deserved to die because they didn’t run away? No, I’m just questioning your claim that if a Palestinian terrorist surrounds himself with innocent Palestinians, they don’t count as hostages. I just figure if they’re not hostages, they can get out of the way. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/149 "2008-12-28T01:58:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Because the innocents were not being held agaisnt their will. Where do you think the innocents in Gaza could go to remove themselves from the Hamas combatants? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/150 "2008-12-28T01:58:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t know. What makes you think they even knew who the pot-shotters were? Are you actually trying to say they and their children deserved to die because they didn’t run away? What’s the difference between holding them hostage and not making sure they know they are living in a war zone, assuming that these people don’t know. Additionally, I suspect many of these people are quite poor, and can’t easily just pack and move even if they wanted to. I guess these is some difference, not not any that matters. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/151 "2008-12-28T02:03:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Look, the Pals are not going away. Killing them all or driving them all into other countries is as obviously inconceivable to you as it is to me. It’s not inconceivable to anyone who isn’t a drooling idiot. The solution is for Israel to kill the terrorists, and to keep killing the terrorists _and anyone they hide behind_, until the Pals themselves say “Enough!” and stop it. The day the Palestinian people repudiate terror attacks and recognize Israel’s right to exist is the day they will have their own country. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If a bad guy takes a shot at you and misses, **AND CONTINUES TO SHOOT AT YOU** do you then have the right to kill his children and his neighbors and his neighbors’ children? > > (Bolding added by me, Weirddave) There, fixed that for you to accurately reflect the situation. And the answer is of course you do in an attempt to stop him from shooting at you. And the answer to your other stupid hypothetical is yes, assuming that ObL was actively involved in executing a terrorist attack at the time he dropped by. If the choice is between my family and nuking NYC, my family loses every time. I’d likely eat a gun afterward, but I’d make the call. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/152 "2008-12-28T02:04:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > (by providing some alternative arrangement that in actual practice is acceptable to them). rotflmao > [@](#): > > Ahmadinejad **says** Israel should be wiped off the map, but if I were Israeli I wouldn’t be scared of him. Good thing for Israel that you weren’t in charge back in the 1980s when they were scared enough of Saddham Hussein to bomb the Osirak nuclear reactor. > [@](#): > > One Settler, One Bullet!" blacks in South Africa gradually grew quiet after all blacks got the vote. _cough_ Zimbabwe _cough_ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/153 "2008-12-28T02:06:38Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Because my children have a parent that cares about them. The Palestinian children, not so much, else the rocket-launching guys would’ve stopped long ago because they have to know by now what the reaction will be. Never mind your completely baseless assertion that their parents didn’t care about them. Are you actually saying that if a child’s parents don’t care about him, then the child deserves to die? > [@](#): > > Just trying to isolate if the constant invoking of “children” is meant primarily as an appeal to emotion. After all, Israeli children get killed as well. And everybody has a fit when they do. > [@](#): > > So you admit that in trying to stop someone from hurting your children, the outcome is uncertain? Once again – this hypothetical has no application to this particular incident. I’m done answering questions about it, but I wil say that if there is certainty that an action will kill innocent people, and if nobody will be hurt by refraining from taking that action, then the only justifiable choice is to refrain. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/154 "2008-12-28T02:11:38Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > It’s not inconceivable to anyone who isn’t a drooling idiot. The solution is for Israel to kill the terrorists, and to keep killing the terrorists and anyone they hide behind, until the Pals themselves say “Enough!” and stop it. Funny. This sounds exactly like the logic the terrorists use. Murder civilians until you get your own way. > [@](#): > > here, fixed that for you to accurately reflect the situation. They were shooting with pop guns. They were no real threat. The Israeli action was aggressive, not defenseive. The pot shot mortaring was just an excuse. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/155 "2008-12-28T02:12:49Z")
At this point, I believe we should fight the hypotheticals, even when they hide amongst innocent children. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/156 "2008-12-28T02:19:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Funny. This sounds exactly like the logic the terrorists use. Murder civilians until you get your own way. Exactly. Both sides at best appear to be trying to kill indiscriminately to intimidate the other into doing what they want. Or they just kill because they don’t like the other side and don’t actually care if anything is accomplished. Both justify what they do by what the other side did in the past. Both sides are sure God is on their side, just under different names. They are a lot more alike than they want to admit. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/157 "2008-12-28T02:20:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Never mind your completely baseless assertion that their parents didn’t care about them. Are you actually saying that if a child’s parents don’t care about him, then the child deserves to die? No, they just shouldn’t be surprised when it happens after they provoke the neighbors. > [@](#): > > And everybody has a fit when they do. Well, a “fit” would be rolling in tanks and putting entire villages to the sword and deploying nukes. At least, that’d be _me_ having a fit. For the most part, I just complain. > [@](#): > > Once again – this hypothetical has no application to this particular incident. I’m done answering questions about it, but I wil say that if there is certainty that an action will kill innocent people, and if nobody will be hurt by refraining from taking that action, then the only justifiable choice is to refrain. What if refraining invites the killer to take out another of your kids? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/158 "2008-12-28T02:22:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Exactly. Both sides at best appear to be trying to kill indiscriminately to intimidate the other into doing what they want. Or they just kill because they don’t like the other side and don’t actually care if anything is accomplished. Both justify what they do by what the other side did in the past. Both sides are sure God is on their side, just under different names. They are a lot more alike than they want to admit. I can think of one difference: If the folks on Hamas’ side lay down their arms, there will be peace. If the folks on Israel’s side lay down their arms, there will be no more Israel. My opinion only. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/159 "2008-12-28T02:23:23Z")
A thought occurs; if Israeli children and Palestinian children are morally equivalent, why doesn’t Hamas just kill Palestinian children to try to force Israel to negotiate? Palestinian children are closer at hand - at the very least it’d be a lot easier. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867/160 "2008-12-28T02:25:26Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > No, they just shouldn’t be surprised when it happens after they provoke the neighbors. We’re not talking about what their parents should be surprised by. We’re talking about whether it’s justifiable to kill them. > [@](#): > > What if refraining invites the killer to take out another of your kids? The killer has not taken out any kids to being with, nor will refraining endanger any more of them. The targets in this case were not a serious threat to Israeli civilians. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-hamas/478867.md?page=9)