# Fuck I want "socialized medicine" and I want it now! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 21, 2008, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846 "2008-10-21T02:32:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846/221 "2008-10-22T03:55:03Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Noted. Irrelevant, but noted. Well, I’ll just assume you concede defeat on all my points you could not bring yourself to discuss. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846/222 "2008-10-22T03:55:24Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > I work for a pharmaceutical company. I’m EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL. Oh god, I work in a pharmacy! Maybe we’re the same kind of evil… ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846/223 "2008-10-22T03:58:08Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > You have, actually, been pretty calm, and you defenitly were at first. However, your problem was that you just kept upping the aggression levels until we were shouting at each other. The only real “insults”, at first, were along the lines of ‘Why can’t you people understand this?’, which, perhaps, wasn’t directed as you like you took it. > > Otoh, I went overboard too. That’s what I get for running from other things to here. > > I acknowledge that it’s a financial burden for those people who are young and healthy. I also think that, in the end, it will benefit everyone (like SS has, and will if we don’t screw that up), and that, even if it did screw some people over, it would still be morally proper to pursue it. OK, look. Not to belabor the point, but I think what got to me was not the “asshole”. It was the over-the-top assertion that somehow, because I had questions, I hate Broomstick and her husband, and want them to die slow, painful deaths. If that ain’t insulting (and a goddamned dishonest debating tactic), then I’m not sure what is. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846/224 "2008-10-22T03:59:13Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, I’ll just assume you concede defeat on all my points you could not bring yourself to discuss. Good lord. And you people are calling ME an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846/225 "2008-10-22T04:03:18Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > Oh god, I work in a pharmacy! Maybe we’re the same kind of evil… Just kissin’ cousins of evil, unless you work in a nuke pharmacy. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846/226 "2008-10-22T04:06:33Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Good lord. And you people are calling ME an asshole. I haven’t, but feel free to refute my assumption if you can. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846/227 "2008-10-22T04:07:07Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Just kissin’ cousins of evil, unless you work in a nuke pharmacy. 😉 Oooh…hospital and retail. We get the best of _both_ worlds. Okay we should stop, I think we’re violating some professional ethics, here… ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846/228 "2008-10-22T05:19:29Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > According to one [study](http://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/pridata/studies/medical_mal_final_report.htm) by the state of Connecticut, the average yearly malpractice premium is over $23,000. The same study reported that there were 2,800 or so licensed doctors that provide direct medicall care (and thus are required to be insured) in the state, bringing the grand total to (roughly) $65,000,000 per year for Connecticut alone. Won’t that still be there, even with a socialized system? In that case, won’t we, in effect, be socializing much more than the medical industry? Won’t we ALL be paying for bum investments by the insurance companies? Hell, William McGuire made twice that much every year, all by himself. Since we won’t need him (well, we got rid of him already) nor his counterparts and their underlings any more, I’m pretty sure we can find the pittance you’re speaking of somewhere in the piles of cash we’d save by bypassing the money-printing healthcare industry. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846/229 "2008-10-22T05:21:19Z")
Huh, coincidentally enough, I just ran into a [DailyKos diary](http://www.dailykos.com/hotlist/add/2008/10/21/145517/81/displaystory//) by an economist that illustrates nicely why health care doesn’t fit well into a deregulated “free” market, to wit: > [@](#): > > **Failure 2: Markets for health insurance unravel due to “adverse selection.”** > > One of the most ridiculous things we’ve heard from McCain is the conservative canard that health insurance should be left to the free market. He’s counting on voters not to think beyond “freer is better,” but theory and overwhelming evidence both make it clear free markets just don’t work in this case. > > Suppose a company charges a premium equal to the average health expenses for all citizens. Well, roughly, the sicker among us will think that’s a good deal and sign up, while the healthiest will opt out – that’s called “adverse selection.” Average costs will be higher than anticipated, and the company will start losing money. They will have to raise prices. But now, even more people towards the healthy end will drop out, average costs will go up again, leading to higher prices, etc., etc. Eventually prices will be sky-high, and only the very sick will pay them – the rest will go uninsured. Of course, that’s not really insurance at all. This isn’t just theory – this is why non-employer-based health insurance is hugely expensive, and many of the self-employed are uninsured. So much for the supposed Republican love-affair with small-business owners! Good luck if you get sick, Joe! The rest of it is worth reading as well, but I thought this bit was quite germane. We’ve really set ourselves up to fail with the whole insurance model, and competition isn’t going to fix it. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846/230 "2008-10-22T06:06:32Z")
The USA already has socialized medicine, only it is not universal, for although it covers seniors, people in the military, government employees, people on welfare, and people in prison, it does not cover most taxpayers. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846/231 "2008-10-22T06:24:51Z")
When comparing Canada with the USA: Canadians live longer Canadians have more years of good health When looking at what is paid for health care by individuals through their combined taxes and insurance, Canadians pay less On a per capita basis, the Canadaian government spends less on health care The search function is down again, so if you are looking for a cite, either wait until the SDMB pops a viagra pill and then search for individual posts under my user name and the key words World Health Organization, or go dig about in the WHO reports: [World Health Organization (WHO)](http://www.who.int/en/) ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846/232 "2008-10-22T06:32:23Z")
How the 'ell is this thread going on so long anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846/233 "2008-10-22T06:45:07Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Public health isn’t just about how one individual feels; a underclass with inadequate healthcare breeds diseases that don’t ultimately discriminate between economic class, and preventative treatment is more cost effective than waiting until people are direly ill. That, and when push finally comes to shove, they end up at an ER, causing longer waits for the dumbshits that break Q-tips off in thier ears. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846/234 "2008-10-22T07:29:46Z")
Frankly, I was stunned back in 1993 when Hillary Clinton pitched her plan to subsidize private insurers with federal tax dollars (which has been partly accomplished with Medicare Part D, & which “reasonable moderates” like Obama & Romney now support), & people called it “socialized medicine.” I expected socialized medicine to mean putting hospitals in state hands as in the UK. She didn’t even go for single-payer as in Canadian Medicare (which is relatively timid & prone to cost overruns, but less those things then her mad kludge). ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846/235 "2008-10-22T07:34:44Z")
We do “socialized medicine” in the Army. (Or we did before GWB; did he change that?) That’s what we’re advocating for; that every doctor have the capacity to treat by medical criteria as Army doctors do. That the brilliant medical care we give our armed forces be extended to the public. That’s how you sell it, if you really want it. But we have two conservative-by-way-of-ignorant parties in this country who really don’t want it. So they try to kludge something onto the private health-insurance system–ignoring that private health insurance raises costs while lowering compensation to medical workers, & is in fact _the problem not the solution._ ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846/236 "2008-10-22T07:42:33Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > My husband is experiencing socialized medicine through the VA. > > He has to wait months for an appointment. He had a bunch of MRIs done…by the time they were scheduled, finished and read, they were out of date. Oh, and they lost them too. > > Many of his appointments have to be held over in Tampa. If he can’t get a shuttle to get him there by the time of his appointment, he has to drive himself. > > He’s frequently on the phone with the VA for hours at a time, either on hold or being transferred from department to department because the person has no clue how to help him. > > Conversely, I was diagnosed with breast cancer on May 6, 2008, had my surgeries six weeks later, and have just finished chemo and am about to start radiation. My husband has been trying to get his problem taken care of for **two years.** > > I had some hospital bills, the highest was $460. I gladly paid them. I recently got a bill from my chemo doctor for $25. I was about to pitch a fit until I started reading the items. My Neulasta shot (to keep my white blood cell count up) was $7300 for a 6mg shot. My private insurance through my employer (all hail Aetna) covered it. > > I wrote that check for $25 with nary a peep. > > I think if health insurance companies could compete for our business, like car insurance companies, the costs would go down dramatically. This is the fly in the ointment. This is what worries me. The VA sucks ass. And if we tried to build a UK-style NHS, we’d have both Congress & _the very people running the system_ trying either to sabotage it or to bleed it for their own personal gain. The USA is not really a First-World country ethically. It’s Second World, Maybe Third World. A bunch of corrupt scammers looking to get their palms greased. One day we’ll collapse & it’ll be clear we’re really as bloody-minded as East Africans. ---
**Author:** ![anya\_marie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@anya\_marie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anya_marie)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846/237 "2008-10-22T08:24:34Z")
I don’t have health insurance and currently go to a county clinic 20 minutes from my home. I’ve been taking the bus, so it takes half a day generally, but is better than fighting traffic. I pay cash for my office visits and whatever labs i need. They let you run a tab but you do have to pay a bit every time you go in. Office visits run $55, I get the generic Walmart prescriptions which, I am grateful for but i don’t like Walmart much. There is a women’s clinic a couple blocks away but you pay upfront and last time i went it was $100. I also need to see a dentist and get at least one wisdom tooth removed since it is in bad shape. Luckily I’m not horribly sick or i’d be SOL ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846/238 "2008-10-22T09:14:07Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > And if we tried to build a UK-style NHS, we’d have both Congress & _the very people running the system_ trying either to sabotage it or to bleed it for their own personal gain. You may have to “stuff their mouths with gold” as Nye Bevan, father of the NHS, is reputed to have said about his negotiations with the medical establishment. ---
**Author:** ![Wiltshire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ea5d25/32.png) [@Wiltshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wiltshire)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846/239 "2008-10-22T09:54:14Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > I just got the bill today from the hospital emergency room. $600. For 30 seconds of doing jack shit. See, your bill’s so high because you went to the hospital with the bizarre expectation of actually seeing a doctor there. (Expecting to see a doctor! _In a hospital_, of all places…) Well _of course_ it costs extra when you see one. In Dallas, the base rate for letting people just sit there and wait is $162 for 19 hours. [Dallas hospital bills woman who never saw a doctor](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1120ap_odd_hospital_fee.html?source=mypi) ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846/240 "2008-10-22T13:17:21Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > So you’re saying I’m an asshole for snapping back at someone who DEMONSTRABLY insulted me first? How does that work, exactly? > > And no shit it’s an intensely personal issue. It’s medicine, for fuck’s sake. But does that mean we go all hysterical and make half-baked national decisions? I certainly hope not. No, you’re not an asshole for getting snippy when someone insults you. You are, however, an asshole for calling **Broomstick** ’s explanation of what will happen to her husband without healthcare “hystrionics.” It’s not hysterical to say that a man with his medical issues will die earlier than he should and suffer more than he ought to before that–it’s just a plain old statement of fact. You didn’t actually fling any direct insults, but you certainly implied that she’s being stupid and rash and is therefor unfit to engage on an intellectual level. Which, if one is keeping score, means you started it, bucko. Yeah, she’s emotionally invested in this. It’s her ass we’ve dumped out of the frying pan and into the fire, for fuck’s sake. But being emotionally invested doesn’t mean she doesn’t have a valid point. Her point is absolutely valid, and implying that it’s not doesn’t speak well for your intellectual honesty. We are, after all, a nation who prides itself on how humanitarian we are, how much we do to help the downtrodden all around the world. We intervene in all sorts of situations overseas at great financial and human cost because it’s the right thing to do, and we accept that as a valid reason to spend the money and risk the lives. So how is it not a valid reason to spend a fraction of that money helping our own citizens? How does bringing up the humanitarian aspect “hysterical?” Saying that (over and over and over and over again) makes you look like a huge, throbbing donkey dick. It doesn’t help that when you’ve not been dismissing the human aspect as hysterics, you’ve dismissed people dying because we’re not willing to come up off a little money as just one of those things that happens. You know, that whole thing about how we absolutely can put a price on a human life, it happens every day. No big deal, just one of those things that happens, nothing you can do about it. Do you really not see where people would get the idea that you just flat don’t give a shit if people like **Broomstick** and her husband live or die? Really? And if you flat don’t give a shit if people without money live or die, it kind of makes you an asshole by definition. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-i-want-socialized-medicine-and-i-want-it-now/468846.md?page=13)