# Fuck it, just raise my taxes, OK **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 30, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484 "2010-11-30T23:49:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484/61 "2010-12-01T21:54:09Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Sacrifice is conservative, dagnabbit! Other people’s sacrifice is conservative. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484/62 "2010-12-01T22:03:16Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > So the government (under the wise, august aegis of Obamanomics) cracnks up huge debts, and then raises taxes for all the things most people don’t appear to want. I don’t think there is any such thing as “Obamanomics” in a distinct sense. Barry Obama is the very soul of compromise & bipartisanship, he couldn’t maintain an economic ideology in the face of anything resembling serious opposition. And in fact people do appear to want affordable health care & decreased deficits. So you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484/63 "2010-12-01T22:10:51Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > So get organized. If you want to pay down the debt, get some people and do it. > > So the government (under the wise, august aegis of Obamanomics) cracnks up huge debts, and then raises taxes for all the things most people don’t appear to want. > > And you wonder why I’m telling lefties to pony up and leave me out of it? We’re paying for your stupid fucking wars. Shut the fuck up with the “leave me out of it” bullshit. You can’t drag everyone into the mud and then claim some moral high ground. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484/64 "2010-12-01T22:37:04Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > A classic case of Americans learning the wrong lessons from history, even about themselves! Jimmy Carter lost because a) there were US hostages in Iran & he didn’t get them home; b) he signed away “our” Panama Canal. Not because of “sacrifice,” nor because of “malaise.” Sacrifice is conservative, dagnabbit! I should note that’s not why\* I\* think Carter lost (it was mainly the economy). Rather, it’s the political conventional wisdom that states this. Politicians want to win elections and that means not doing and saying things that remind people of things losing candidates and “failed” presidents did and said (even if the particular thing the losing candidates and “failed” presidents did and said had nothing to do with why they lost). ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484/65 "2010-12-01T22:45:34Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > We’re paying for your stupid fucking wars. Shut the fuck up with the “leave me out of it” bullshit. You can’t drag everyone into the mud and then claim some moral high ground. Interesting. How many Representatives and Senators voted against the AUMF in 2001? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484/66 "2010-12-01T22:58:28Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Interesting. How many Representatives and Senators voted against the AUMF in 2001? How many Representatives and Senators is **Mosier**? ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484/67 "2010-12-01T23:18:26Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Interesting. How many Representatives and Senators voted against the AUMF in 2001? Oh, please. Afghanistan, I’ll give you, as that had broad support. But for Republicans to try to weasel out of responsibility for Iraq is both laughable and appalling. We absolutely would not have gone to war with them without the zealous push by both the Republican administration and Republican majority in both houses of Congress. That most of the minority Democrats voted for it in the end out of political necessity is cowardly, to be sure, but takes not one drop of the responsibility away from the Republicans: they initiated a push to invade Iraq which directly led to the invasion of Iraq. Said invasion would not have happened otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484/68 "2010-12-01T23:29:25Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > Oh, please. Afghanistan, I’ll give you, as that had broad support. But for Republicans to try to weasel out of responsibility for Iraq is both laughable and appalling. We absolutely would not have gone to war with them without the zealous push by both the Republican administration and Republican majority in both houses of Congress. That most of the minority Democrats voted for it in the end out of political necessity is cowardly, to be sure, but takes not one drop of the responsibility away from the Republicans: they initiated a push to invade Iraq which directly led to the invasion of Iraq. Said invasion would not have happened otherwise. Plus some of them thought that the President of the United States wouldn’t be lying through his teeth so soon after 9/11. Foolish of them to be sure. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484/69 "2010-12-01T23:32:17Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Sure it would. Just convince your friends to do the same thing. If liberals think there’s such a problem that you want higher taxes, go do it. Or is all that individual action for when you’re having _fun_? Tell you what. Why don’t you and your anti-tax friends get together and raise some money to pay unemployment, give health care to those who don’t have it, and feed the hungry. Since it won’t be going through the government, it should be ten times more efficient, right? Since you are sure voluntary donations will do the trick, problem solved, and the deficit will decrease because of reduced need for these payments. This was the system in the 19th century, after all, and there were no deficits and hardly any poverty back then, right? ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484/70 "2010-12-02T01:45:23Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > So get organized. If you want to pay down the debt, get some people and do it. > > So the government (under the wise, august aegis of Obamanomics) cracnks up huge debts, and then raises taxes for all the things most people don’t appear to want. > > And you wonder why I’m telling lefties to pony up and leave me out of it? Any raise of taxes is on the Republicans hands. They are the ones that set a tax cut with an expiration date. If they wanted their tax cuts to be permanent maybe they should have done a better job convincing the guys on the other side of the isle to pass a tax cut the government couldn’t afford. My opinion is let all the tax cuts expire. It’s being sold as if everyone is suddenly going to have to pay taxes beyond their means. The increases isn’t enough to force people any further into debt then they already are. The middle class they are so desperately trying to save are looking at having to pay less then a weeks salary in increased taxes. Allowing irresponsible tax cuts to expire will suck, but not nearly as bad as is being sold. We can afford it and people interested in Americas future should be willing to pay it. Their is plenty of wasted tax dollars and it is unfair to just keep raising taxes to pay for programs but those programs are already their and the government has to pay for them. If you want lower taxes, go after those things first. Cut taxes based on those savings. Until we have paid off or debt their shouldn’t be any talk of tax cuts, we owe money, the only discussion involving taxes should be proposed increases to balance the budget. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484/71 "2010-12-02T03:20:00Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > This is something that has puzzled me – the wars have been curiously absent in nearly all the recent discussion about the deficit and spending vs. taxes. But obviously, that’s a pretty big factor in the deficit, right? And one which is, hopefully, not a long-term cost? So spending-wise, things are higher right now than they would be otherwise and will be again once we’re not at war in two different places? > > I guess I know why the Republicans haven’t brought it up – they started the wars, and IIRC I believe Bush initially kept them off the budget books so the deficit didn’t look as bad, so ignoring them is an easy way to make Obama and the Democrats look like they’re spending like crazy all of a sudden, but why didn’t the Democrats counter? (Apart from being terrible at winning elections, I mean.) It’s a good question. I am _guessing_ part of the answer from the wonk perspective _might_ be that the Bush tax cuts have a bigger effect and that it’s all irrelevant compared with the importance of long run cost controls on health care. Politically, an anti-war stance isn’t a guaranteed vote winner, because few want to back a wimp. Besides, the Dems are pretty hawkish by international standards anyway. Gore would have invaded Afghanistan and Clinton won a number of wars during his administration, partly because he didn’t thumb his nose at our allies. But modern US conservatives are temperamentally inclined towards hysteria. Remember all the teeth gnashing that occurred here in the Spring of 2001, after the Chinese captured some US Navy airmen? Seems like small potatoes now, but it’s a glimpse of an alternative history, had the 9/11 plot been foiled by Richard Clarke et al. Modern conservatives predictably choose hyperventilation over a serious-minded management of the US’s security challenges. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484/72 "2010-12-02T03:38:17Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Politically, an anti-war stance isn’t a guaranteed vote winner, because few want to back a wimp. Besides, the Dems are pretty hawkish by international standards anyway. Gore would have invaded Afghanistan and Clinton won a number of wars during his administration, partly because he didn’t thumb his nose at our allies. But modern US conservatives are temperamentally inclined towards hysteria. True, but I’m not talking about people pointing their fingers and saying “it’s the wars that are the reason we’re in a deficit, so it’s _your_ fault, jerkbag!” It’s more that we’re in the midst of two wars, and there’s all this discussion about how we could be running up such a huge deficit and yet they never even really get mentioned (that I’ve seen). You don’t have to assign blame or argue that we should cut spending there, but at least acknowledging them as a large factor in the current budget situation would make sense, right? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484/73 "2010-12-02T04:25:46Z")
It is odd. I guess the 2 wars are treated as security issues or as a force of nature, but not budgetary ones. But it is a budgetary issue of course. The special ops boys desperately want a win for themselves, and Afghanistan is as good a venue as any to demonstrate their prowess. Maybe they can do it. But as long as we deny Bin Laden a base in that mountainous country, it’s not clear whether preventing a civil war there is worth the cost in US treasure, never mind blood. [http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2009/11/special-ops-commanders-want-large-deployment-to-afghanistan/](http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2009/11/special-ops-commanders-want-large-deployment-to-afghanistan/) > [@Matt Yglesias](#): > > At the end of the day to get a real debate going about the wisdom of going big you need someone in the room who represents a competing claim on the resources at hand. Does it make sense to sustain tens of thousands of soldiers in Afghanistan at a cost of tens of billions of dollars a year in order to protect America from a group with “several hundred to several thousand members” and no heavy weapons? > > Well, I think that depends on what alternative uses of the resources are available. If the meeting also includes someone who needs to worry about the budget deficit, or about health care, or about child nutrition, or preventing bridges from collapsing then maybe this doesn’t look like such a great deal. But if it’s a meeting of uniformed military officers to talk about what’s the best way to handle the situation in Afghanistan, then even the guys who do counterterrorism still see the benefits of a broader approach. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484/74 "2010-12-02T04:31:09Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > [Weed, guns, and axes > We don’t pay no taxes > Cause we don’t exist > On any government list](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVS-dI2Etx0) Scissorfight ftw! ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484/75 "2010-12-02T17:09:12Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > OK, **smiling bandit** , if raising any taxes at all is anathema, how specifically do you think we should close the budget deficit? Don’t say “cut spending”, tell us what you think should be cut and by how much. Well, I’m shocked, simply shocked, to discover that **smiling bandit** hasn’t returned to explain how he has solutions to the nation’s budget problems beyond “hurr, you can pay more taxes yourself if you love paying taxes so much!” I may have to sit down. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484/76 "2010-12-02T17:55:37Z")
I’d be all for a tax increase, after we exhaust all possible cuts. I actually just first want to see the cuts that the new health care plan calls for done. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484/77 "2010-12-02T17:58:53Z")
What cuts are “possible”? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484/78 "2010-12-02T18:06:22Z")
I guess, That, is the crux. Sam Stone laid out a pretty comprehensive post that called for cuts in a lot of Entitlements, Defense and other governmental agencies. I agreed with a majority of what he said. I’ll try and find the post to link to. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484/79 "2010-12-02T18:43:55Z")
Missed the edit window but I did find the link : [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=587296&page=4](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=587296&page=4) ---
**Author:** ![Rafe\_Hollister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/fbc32d/32.png) [@Rafe\_Hollister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rafe_Hollister)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484/80 "2010-12-02T20:37:23Z")
If you seriously think taxes should be higher, have you refused to accept a refund, favoring instead to cut an extra check to the treasury? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-it-just-raise-my-taxes-ok/562484.md?page=5)