# Fuck off Dubya, you arrogant little shit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 2, 2004, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342 "2004-06-02T22:52:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342/61 "2004-06-03T07:54:10Z")
Although, perhaps it could be argued that Bush has allowed the “war on terrorism” to enter Iraq. While terrorist groups had no trace of a foothold there a year ago, they sure as hell do now! ---
**Author:** ![Carnick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carnick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnick)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342/62 "2004-06-03T10:04:16Z")
Holy crap, are you people really arguing this intensely over one ambiguous sentence? Isn’t this how wars get started? The Pit never ceases to entertain me. It’s like watching monkeys fling doodoo at each other and screeching over possession of a banana… or whatever monkeys fight over. - Mike ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342/63 "2004-06-03T10:34:07Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > See, there you go again! Where did I say or even imply that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11? > > Nowhere, that’s where. Several places, actually. Like later on in the very post I’m quoting, where you say: > [@](#): > > The war in Iraq is most certainly, and has always been, a vital part of the war on terror, and in ways and on levels that you aren’t even aware of. If the war on Iraq is part of the war on terror (which you and Bush certainly are convinced of), then how can you deny that you’re making a connection between 9/11 and the war in Iraq? 9/11 _triggered_ the war on terror. Surely you’re not denying that? Well then. By extention, your claim that the war in Iraq is part of TWAT (bravo, Eve!) constitutes a claim that 9/11 and Iraq are somehow related. If you want to support the war in Iraq yet still maintain your intellectual honesty, I suggest you start admitting that Iraq had fuck all to do with 9/11, and hence is _not_ part of TWAT. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342/64 "2004-06-03T10:39:37Z")
Coldfire is right. The war in Iraq is classic opportunism. That’s why there’s no war in North Korea, and no war in Saudi Arabia. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342/65 "2004-06-03T10:41:24Z")
> [@](#): > > **TVeblen** : Basically Bush was quoted as saying–quite rightly–that he didn’t pursue Saddam into Bagdhad because it would have ruined the international support crucial to the war. I was recently dismayed to learn that President Bush said of this reasoning that “We’re not going to cut and run like we did in '91.” That is chilling in its full implications. [quote] **Starving Artist** : Starving Artist: You people are so blinded by indignation, scorn, your own perceived superiority and rage that you can’t even interpret correctly words in front of your very own eyes. I confess to being indignant, scornful, superior, and enraged. Even blind in one eye. > [@](#): > > Like the Second World War, our present conflict began with a ruthless, surprise attack on the United States. The phrase _like the Second World War_ modifies _our present conflict_. (What is it that’s like the Second World War? Answer: Our present conflict. (Grammatically speaking, that is correct. _Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there._ What is it that’s like a good neighbor?) So he is saying that both the Second World War and our present conflict began with an attack on the U.S. I am having trouble seeing the ambiguity. Could someone explain the other interpretation to me? I suspect that his speech writer knew better and certainly the cadets knew better. But a “theme” has been planted in some receptive minds. Keep in mind that President Bush, in the remainder of his speech, does not appear to be limiting himself to Iraq when he talks of _our present conflict._ He is talking about Eve’s _TWAT_. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342/66 "2004-06-03T10:43:59Z")
Some things that bother me about this speech: > [@](#): > > **The President** : Like other totalitarian movements, the terrorists seek to impose a grim vision in which dissent is crushed, and every man and woman must think and live in colorless conformity. So to the oppressed peoples everywhere, we are offering the great alternative of human liberty. I think the President tries to crush dissent in this country and tried to even on his trip to London. Many of his supporters seemed to feel comfortable in calling those opposed to the war “traitors” or describing them as “unpatriotic.” He didn’t do much, if anything, to discourage this name-calling. In fact, he dismissed protestors as “a focus group.” > [@](#): > > And since September the 11th, we’ve seen terrorist violence in an arc from Morocco to Spain to Turkey to Russia to Uzbekistan to Pakistan to India to Thailand to Indonesia. Yet the center of the conflict, the platform for their global expansion, the region they seek to remake in their image, is the broader Middle East. Contrary to what the President suggests, terrorists acts did not begin with September 11, 2001 – not even for this country. [quote] The terrorists of our day are, in some ways, unlike the enemies of the past. The terrorist ideology has not yet taken control of a great power like Germany or the Soviet Union. And so the terrorists have adopted a strategy different from the gathering of vast and standing armies. They seek, instead, to demoralize free nations with dramatic acts of murder. They seek to wear down our resolve and will by killing the innocent and spreading fear and anarchy. And they seek weapons of mass destruction, so they can threaten or attack even the most powerful nations. Excuse me, I seem to recall dramatic acts of murder by the Japanese in China, by the Nazis in Europe, Stalin in the USSR – just for starters. Terrorists aren’t so different from enemies of the past when they kill the innocent and spread fear and anarchy. And the USA kills the innocent and spreads fear. We _have_ weapons of mass destruction. We threaten and attack. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342/67 "2004-06-03T10:46:41Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > He is talking about Eve’s _TWAT_. Sweet Mother of God. Eve, you’ve got some ‘splainin’ to do. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342/68 "2004-06-03T11:04:27Z")
> [@](#): > > **Gorilla Man** : So what did he mean by “present conflict”? That’s what is _really_ so creepy about this speech. The President lists four strategies for TWAT. This is the first step: > [@](#): > > First, we are using every available tool to dismantle, disrupt and destroy terrorists and their organizations. \*\*With all the skill of our law enforcement, all the stealth of our special forces, and all the global reach of our air power, we will strike the terrorists before they can strike our people. **The best way to protect America is to stay on the offensive.** (bolding added) He is not just talking about Iraq. He appears to be talking about the potential for preemptive strikes globally. And he goes on to describe his new doctrine for this strategy: > [@](#): > > I have set a clear doctrine that the sponsors of terror will be held equally accountable for the acts of terrorists. Regimes in Iraq and Afghanistan learned that providing support and sanctuary to terrorists carries with it enormous costs. I don’t think it is splitting hairs to say that he is threatening the possibility of military action against countries that provide support or sanctuary to anyone he deems to be a terrorist. > [@](#): > > We can only imagine the scale of terrorist crimes were they to gain control of states with weapons of mass murder or vast oil revenues. So we will not retreat. Is this where I came in? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342/69 "2004-06-03T12:30:55Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Sure enough, the [early evolution of the sea cow](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/10/1010_jamaicaseacow.html) gives a better fit. Oi. Lay off the extinct sea-cows-with-legs, man. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342/70 "2004-06-03T12:37:58Z")
Don’t forget, **Zoe** …you have to turn that tin-foil hat 30 degrees every hour to prevent the mind-control rays from eating through… The analogy makes perfect sense. America’s military entry into WWII was due to Pearl Harbor. America’s broad military entry into TWO(thanks very much, **Eve** , but 'll pass)T was due to 9-11. Both were unprovoked attacks on American soil that conspiracy theorists claim the administration allowed to happen. America attacked not only the country directly responsible (Japan, Afghanistan), but also - and with greater force - an nation allied with said country but not directly responsible for the attacks (Germany, Iraq). Yes? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342/71 "2004-06-03T12:52:11Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > America attacked not only the country directly responsible (Japan, Afghanistan), but also - and with greater force - an nation allied with said country but not directly responsible for the attacks (Germany, Iraq). > > Yes? No. Iraq and Al-Qaeda weren’t allied, and Iraq was a pitiful whipped puppy militarily, not a massive war engine already controlling large chunks of its home continent. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342/72 "2004-06-03T13:02:19Z")
> [@Coldfire](#): > > If the war on Iraq is part of the war on terror (which you and Bush certainly are convinced of), then how can you deny that you’re making a connection between 9/11 and the war in Iraq? 9/11 _triggered_ the war on terror. Surely you’re not denying that? In the same way that the war on Germany was part of WWII, even though Germany was not involved in Pearl Harbor. And in the same way that WWII was triggered by Germany’s invasion of Poland, and yet the US began her involvement in WWII by declaring war on Japan. > [@Coldfire](#): > > Well then. By extention, your claim that the war in Iraq is part of TWAT (bravo, Eve!) constitutes a claim that 9/11 and Iraq are somehow related. OK. By the same logic, Germany and Pearl Harbor were somehow related. > [@Coldfire](#): > > If you want to support the war in Iraq yet still maintain your intellectual honesty, I suggest you start admitting that Iraq had fuck all to do with 9/11, and hence is _not_ part of TWAT. Well, then you need to maintain your intellectual honesty by admitting that Germany had fuck-all to do with Pearl Harbor, and hence was not part of WWII. It is possible to have more than one enemy at a time. Just as the US was at war with Italy during WWII, even though Italy was not involved in either Pearl Harbor or the invasion of Poland. The war on terror involves a number of enemies. Some were involved in 9/11; others are enemies of the US for other reasons. Remember the “axis of evil”? North Korea had nothing to do with 9/11, but constitutes a threat to Asia and therefore, indirectly, to the interests of the US. Iran was not involved in 9/11, but also constitutes a nuclear threat to the ME region. Hell, you would be hard put to show that the invasion of Kuwait in 1991 was a direct attack on the US, but most agree that the first Gulf War was justifiable. I agree with **Starving Artist**. You people are letting your hatred of Bush get out of hand. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342/73 "2004-06-03T13:23:49Z")
> [@](#): > > **lampchop** : Your assumption that all or the vast majority of Iraqis, Saudis, and Egyptians are Islamists is incorrect. Also, Iran isn’t a terrific example since, among other differences, because it’s a Shi’ite state, not a Sunni one. Although I think you have misinterpreted **Spavined Gelding’s** post, here are some stats that you might want to consider: According the the United States Library of Congress Country Studies, 1. 95 percent of Iraqis are Muslim. 2. Egypt has been primarily Islamic for 1,000 years. 3. The “overwhelming majority” (their words, not mine) of Iranians–at least 90 percent of the total population–are Muslims who adhere to Shia Islam. 4. The “vast majority” (again, their words) of the people of Saudi Arabia are Sunni Muslims. You can check other countries here: [http://www.arches.uga.edu/~godlas/muslcntlibc.html](http://www.arches.uga.edu/~godlas/muslcntlibc.html) ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342/74 "2004-06-03T13:32:25Z")
**Shodan** , the problem is that we have a President who is claiming that Italy invaded Poland. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342/75 "2004-06-03T13:35:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, then you need to maintain your intellectual honesty by admitting that Germany had fuck-all to do with Pearl Harbor, and hence was not part of WWII. Are you unaware that Germany declared war on the US on December 11, 1941? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342/76 "2004-06-03T13:39:44Z")
Darn you, **Demo**. Was just rushing in with that factoid, just to find you sitting there, all smug and Aussie. I hate it when you guys sober up. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342/77 "2004-06-03T13:45:16Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **Shodan** , the problem is that we have a President who is claiming that Italy invaded Poland. The Pope, supreme Pontiff of all Catholics, lived in Italy. (Vatican City, my ass! It’s still Italy.) Adolf Hitler was Catholic. There is no proof, _none whatsoever_, that the Pope did not direct his vassal, Hitler, to invade Poland. Q.E.D. (No need to thank me, **Shodan**. Glad to help.) ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342/78 "2004-06-03T13:58:54Z")
> [@](#): > > **athelas** Don’t forget, Zoe…you have to turn that tin-foil hat 30 degrees every hour to prevent the mind-control rays from eating through… Hey! That’s not fair! I really am a little nuts. Be gentle. > [@](#): > > The analogy makes perfect sense. > > America’s military entry into WWII was due to Pearl Harbor. Yes, we know that. But that is not really what he literally said. > [@](#): > > America’s broad military entry into TWO(thanks very much, Eve, but 'll pass)T was due to 9-11. Both were unprovoked attacks on American soil that conspiracy theorists claim the administration allowed to happen. You and I agree. Check for tinfoil. > [@](#): > > America attacked not only the country directly responsible (Japan, Afghanistan), but also - and with greater force - an nation allied with said country but not directly responsible for the attacks (Germany, Iraq). > > Yes? Maybe I should be more direct. We had one set of reasons for being at war with Japan and another set of reasons for being at war with Germany. I’m not a historian, but I _think_ that we didn’t confuse the two fronts. We didn’t blame Germany for the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Also, the war with Germany resulted in fewer Nazis, not more. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342/79 "2004-06-03T14:05:23Z")
**elucidator** , I’m writing a new piece of music to be used at your next family get-together. It’s called _Oy Veh Maria Mio_ as is written in a pentatonic scale. I hope you are happy. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342/80 "2004-06-03T14:06:00Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **Shodan** , the problem is that we have a President who is claiming that Italy invaded Poland. I can’t think of a single time that Bush blamed 9/11 directly or primarily on Iraq, yet people on this board keep claiming it over and over again. We did not go to war with Iraq because it perpetrated the 9/11 attacks. Similarly, I have never held that we went to war with Iraq because they perpetrated 9/11, yet people on this board extrapolate that I do every single time I say something pro-Bush or in favor of the war on terrorism. Thanks to **Shodan** for your response to **Coldfire**. I couldn’t have said it better myself. The war on terror is being fought on many fronts and in many ways. It is being fought in Afghanistan, the Phillipines, Germany, France, Italy, the U.S. itself, etc. The war in Iraq is only a part of the war on terror. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-dubya-you-arrogant-little-shit/248342.md?page=5)