# Fuck Off with your Feigned Outrage and Shock over Spying **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 25, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228 "2013-10-25T18:27:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228/41 "2013-10-28T15:36:31Z")
“You can’t do that here! It’s illegal under Spanish law!” You may be surprised to hear this, but espionage is illegal _everywhere_, dear. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228/42 "2013-10-28T15:46:38Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Ya know, it’s not just the spying on leaders that is the problem over here. Your NSA recorded over 100 million phone calls in Spain and Italy - just in [_one fucking month_](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/10408572/NSA-tracked-60-million-phone-calls-in-Spain-in-a-month.html). The citizens of Spain did not authorize this NSA eavesdropping through their sovereign elected representatives, as the NSA is an agency of the US, not Spanish, government. They did, however, tell their representatives to make such espionage illegal in Spain - _by anyone_ (from the link above: “Interception of telephone calls is illegal under Spanish law 25/2007, which forbids the conservation of data relating to electronic communications and public networks.”) > > This is _not_ something “all countries do” - this is something the USA does. > > (emphasis added) > > Yes, and as usual, even here on the relatively progressive Dope, there is no shortage of posters who are willing to handwave away their nation’s intrusive, arrogant, and bullying actions. This act and their threat to attack Syria are clear-cut rogue acts of US gov., somethings which even a big majority of the US citizens disapprove. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228/43 "2013-10-28T15:49:24Z")
Of course, in five years people will be demanding to know why the US didn’t take any action to stop the violence in Syria when it had the power to do so. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228/44 "2013-10-28T15:51:58Z")
What exactly are we supposed to gain from phone tapping the lines of our allies? If the US suddenly stopped all spying in our closest allies, would we really lose anything important? ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228/45 "2013-10-28T16:01:13Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > What exactly are we supposed to gain from phone tapping the lines of our allies? If the US suddenly stopped all spying in our closest allies, would we really\*\* lose anything \*\*important? nothing, i am guessing. you guys are separated by oceans on both sides. other than your own land, you got to protect only select few(not all) assets in other countries. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228/46 "2013-10-28T16:03:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Of course, in five years people will be demanding to know why the US didn’t take any action to stop the violence in Syria when it had the power to do so. sure. one way to stop it would have been to stop rebels frm getting armed n funded. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228/47 "2013-10-28T16:05:24Z")
[Not everybody does it this much and like this, and there are good reasons not to do what the NSA has been doing.](http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/10/23/false_fronts_natsecwonk_nsa_scandal_expose_washington?page=0,1) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228/48 "2013-10-28T16:17:54Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > sure. one way to stop it would have been to stop rebels frm getting armed n funded. And how are we supposed to do that, exactly (aside from cutting off the relatively minimal funding and arms from US sources)? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228/49 "2013-10-28T16:35:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > And how are we supposed to do that, exactly (aside from cutting off the relatively minimal funding and arms from US sources)? Underlining mine. Well, that would be a good start / bare minimum. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228/50 "2013-10-28T17:03:39Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Underlining mine. Well, that would be a good start / bare minimum. This and if you have real noble intentions, then use your influence and power such that others also do the same. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228/51 "2013-10-28T17:34:40Z")
Now it’s Spain. I have to say the White House could do better than it’d current defence of 'everybody does it". ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228/52 "2013-10-28T17:45:11Z")
> [@by-tor](#): > > And Snowden you are a fucking traitor. And **by-tor** you are a fucking idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228/53 "2013-10-28T18:18:17Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I have to say the White House could do better than it’d current defence of 'everybody does it". How? That’s really the only justification for it. It’s not as though the White House can start telling people about all the terror plots the US intelligence community has helped to avert in other countries. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228/54 "2013-10-28T19:36:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > “You can’t do that here! It’s illegal under Spanish law!” You may be surprised to hear this, but espionage is illegal _everywhere_, dear. My point was that the citizens of Spain didn’t sign off on your NSA program. They set the limits on their own government’s surveillance powers over them. Just as, at least in theory, you did so in regards to the US federal gov’t’s degree of acceptable spying on its own citizens. I find it hard to believe that you would be OK with Putin or Xi going through all of your electronic correspondence. > [@Bob's Zombie](#): > > [Not everybody does it this much and like this, and there are good reasons not to do what the NSA has been doing.](http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/10/23/false_fronts_natsecwonk_nsa_scandal_expose_washington?page=0,1) This was a very interesting article. I’m guessing GOOG might start trending downward… ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228/55 "2013-10-28T19:54:48Z")
Oh - and another one for all you “everybody does it” types: ["Alex Abdo, a lawyer with the ACLU, which requested the hearing at the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, warned the human rights panel that the NSA could “target the foreign members of this commission when they travel abroad”, as well as foreign dissidents of US-aligned governments; foreign lawyers for Guantánamo detainees; and other foreigners. **"If every country were to engage in surveillance as pervasive as the NSA, we would soon live in a state … with no refuge for the world’s dissidents, journalists and human rights defenders** ," Abdo said."]([NSA oversight dismissed as 'illusory' as anger intensifies in Europe and beyond | NSA | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/28/nsa-oversight-surveillance-anger-deepens-europe)) emphasis added ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228/56 "2013-10-28T23:14:51Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > My point was that the citizens of Spain didn’t sign off on your NSA program. They set the limits on their own government’s surveillance powers over them. Just as, at least in theory, you did so in regards to the US federal gov’t’s degree of acceptable spying on its own citizens. I find it hard to believe that you would be OK with Putin or Xi going through all of your electronic correspondence. And my point was that _nobody_ signs off on a surveillance program. I don’t particularly want Putin going through my e-mail, and I don’t particularly want Obama doing it either, but I don’t get to decide because _it’s spying_. It’s involuntary _by definition_. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228/57 "2013-10-29T06:18:15Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > And my point was that _nobody_ signs off on a surveillance program. I don’t particularly want Putin going through my e-mail, and I don’t particularly want Obama doing it either, but I don’t get to decide because _it’s spying_. It’s involuntary _by definition_. Yep, the money to build the operation just came out of nowhere. Like the salaries do and the contracts. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228/58 "2013-10-29T14:18:13Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > HEY! HEY! HEY! Fuck it with the fake outrage over the fake outrage! Fuck and fake. Next time Angela Fuckin Merkel whines about spying on her personally, mention that she is the Chancellor of Fuckin Germany. You know who else was the Chancellor of Fuckin Germany? Hitler, that’s who. We need to spy on the fuckin Germans.This ain’t rocket science, which is German, and more fuckin reason to be spying on the fuckin Germans. Yes, and the USA still has slaves and kills Indian in the Wild Wild West! :smack: Get with the 21st century or crawl back into your cave you racist Bible thumbing Indian killing slave trading retard! ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228/59 "2013-10-29T14:21:35Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > One, you’re implying that Germany and France etc. are hypocrites because they do this too. Do you have any evidence of that, or is it just your gut feeling? > [@](#): > > In response to that a former French Intelligence official suggested that such activity on the part of the United States is nothing new or unusual. > > “The French intelligence services know full well that all countries, whether or not they are allies in the fight against terrorism, spy on each other all the time,” said Bernard Squarcini, former head of the Direction Centrale du Renseignement Intérieur (DCRI) intelligence service until last year, told French daily LeFigaro . > > “The Americans spy on French commercial and industrial interests, and we do the same to them because it’s in the national interest to protect our companies”, he said as he shrugged his shoulders. > > “There was nothing of any real surprise in this report,” he added. “No one is fooled.” Spying on allies is all in a day’s work”, Squarcini added. [Link to source](http://groundreport.com/former-french-intelligence-official-admits-to-espionage-against-american-commercial-and-industrial-interest/). I don’t read French to find the original source. You can find the same quote/story in other media sources if you don’t like the one I picked. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228/60 "2013-10-29T14:59:11Z")
Adding to a pile of things for which the only counter-argument is **The only thing shocking is that you found out today** : -Torture -Drone killing -Secret renditions (i.e. cooperating with undemocratic countries when dealing with suspects from those countries) -Funding & planning with Al Q -Lobbyist money runs the government not your vote -2008 Financial Crisis was legal -Occupy Movement are bunch of lazy hipsters with no aim -Incompetence is the root of all evil [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-off-with-your-feigned-outrage-and-shock-over-spying/672228.md?page=4)