# Fuck Oklahoma Governor Mary Fallin and Fuck the Death Penalty **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 16, 2015, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478 "2015-09-16T15:15:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/81 "2015-09-18T18:34:47Z")
Honestly, if we must have a death penalty, I don’t see why we are so wedded to lethal injection. Why not a guillotine or nitrogen asphyxiation? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/82 "2015-09-18T18:37:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Irrelevant. If a person deserves to die for their crimes, then they deserve to die for their crimes. The fact that Person X didn’t get the punishment they deserve does not mean that Person Y shouldn’t get it either. > > No, the racial disparities in the use of the death penalty are one of the strongest reasons to oppose racial disparity in sentencing. It has no bearing on the justness of the death penalty. When people from group X were historically much more likely to be executed without good evidence, and people from group X are still executed at a vastly higher rate even when crime disparities are taken into account, then it’s reasonable to suspect that some of the past biases that led to unjust executions might still be in play today. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/83 "2015-09-18T18:39:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It _is_, however, race-baiting to assert racial motivations when none are present. Which is what you’re doing here. The evidence is overwhelming that the death penalty is applied in a racially disparate manner. > [@Smapti](#): > > No, the racial disparities in the use of the death penalty are one of the strongest reasons to oppose racial disparity in sentencing. But you’re fine with continuing to use the death penalty before the racial disparity gets fixed, right? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/84 "2015-09-18T18:40:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > When people from group X were historically much more likely to be executed without good evidence, and people from group X are still executed at a vastly higher rate even when crime disparities are taken into account, then it’s reasonable to suspect that some of the past biases that led to unjust executions might still be in play today. So if the ratio of white to black people sentenced to death in this country was exactly proportional and there existed no such historical bias, you would drop your objection to the death penalty? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/85 "2015-09-18T18:42:20Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The evidence is overwhelming that the death penalty is applied in a racially disparate manner. Please provide this evidence, along with the evidence that proves that this disparity is the result of malicious intent on the part of prosecutors against black people. > [@](#): > > But you’re fine with continuing to use the death penalty before the racial disparity gets fixed, right? Yes. If a person deserves to die for their crimes, it is irrelevant that some other person in some other state was treated unfairly 70 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/86 "2015-09-18T18:54:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Please provide this evidence, along with the evidence that proves that this disparity is the result of malicious intent on the part of prosecutors against black people. [Here’s]([http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/death-penalty-black-and-white-who-lives-who-dies-who-decides#Black](http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/death-penalty-black-and-white-who-lives-who-dies-who-decides#Black) Defendants and the Race of the Victims) a fairly nuanced but presentable read. It’s about a decade out of date, but not much has changed in the numbers. Here’s another shorter [article](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/13/houston-texas-death-row-black-inmates). I look forward to your posting one iota of research that contradicts these studies. Note that your cartoonish version of racism–avowedly racist prosecutors with malicious intent–is an unserious straw man. > [@Smapti](#): > > Yes. If a person deserves to die for their crimes, it is irrelevant that some other person in some other state was treated unfairly 70 years ago. I’m not sure why you won’t just directly admit that you think it’s more important to kill murderers than it is to have race-neutral sentencing. That is your position, right? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/87 "2015-09-18T19:01:16Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Note that your cartoonish version of racism–avowedly racist prosecutors with malicious intent–is an unserious straw man. If there are no avowedly racist prosecutors with malicious intent, then racial disparity in death penalty sentencing is of no consequence. You have undermined your own “strongest argument”. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure why you won’t just directly admit that you think it’s more important to kill murderers than it is to have race-neutral sentencing. That is your position, right? Yes. Those who commit murder deserve to die. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/88 "2015-09-18T19:04:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If there are no avowedly racist prosecutors with malicious intent, then racial disparity in death penalty sentencing is of no consequence. You have undermined your own “strongest argument”. Unconscious racism doesn’t exist or doesn’t count? There’s no such thing as people with good intent who nevertheless have racial bias? Were the majority of white Americans in 1920 racist? 1820? Were they all malicious, in your view? > [@Smapti](#): > > Yes. Those who commit murder deserve to die. That’s half the equation. What you’re saying is that it is more important to kill them than it is important to see that a white murderer of a black victim and a black murderer of a white victim are treated the same. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/89 "2015-09-18T19:06:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There’s a difference between “default assumption” and “always”. > > \ > > Anti-DP proponents generally-but-not-always do one or both of two things… Again, I get it. It hurts any movement when people misrepresent the facts in its support. And I get that people doing so visibly might cause you to be biased against the entirety of the cause. But **Richard Parker** suggested reading Stevenson, and I second that. And when close to 40% of the US population oppose the death penalty, surely the majority of them do not misrepresent the facts? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/90 "2015-09-18T19:10:40Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Unconscious racism doesn’t exist or doesn’t count? All acts of racism require a conscious decision on the part of the person engaging in them. > [@](#): > > There’s no such thing as people with good intent who nevertheless have racial bias? Correct. Do you insist that racists are good people with good intent? > [@](#): > > That’s half the equation. What you’re saying is that it is more important to kill them than it is important to see that a white murderer of a black victim and a black murderer of a white victim are treated the same. Both murderers deserve to die. If one of them isn’t executed for whatever reason, that is not an argument that the other shouldn’t be executed either. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/91 "2015-09-18T19:11:41Z")
> [@andros](#): > > And when close to 40% of the US population oppose the death penalty, surely the majority of them do not misrepresent the facts? No. Some of them are just misinformed, or cowardly, or operating under wrongheaded appeals to religion or morality. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/92 "2015-09-18T19:13:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Do you insist that racists are good people with good intent?. Yes, most people with racial biases are good people with good intent. You only claim otherwise because it is convenient for your political principles, not because you’ve given it even 30 seconds of sustained thought. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/93 "2015-09-18T19:15:59Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Yes, most people with racial biases are good people with good intent. A good person does not allow him/herself to cultivate racial bias. Racial bias is an act of intellectual laziness. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/94 "2015-09-18T19:19:02Z")
Well, then in the spirit of battling intellectual laziness, I encourage you to do some reading. You might start with _Just Mercy_, suggested above. [This](http://www.amazon.com/Blindspot-Hidden-Biases-Good-People/dp/0553804642) might be a good one for you too. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/95 "2015-09-18T19:23:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > A good person does not allow him/herself to cultivate racial bias. Racial bias is an act of intellectual laziness. Most racial bias is probably unconscious. Good people recognize the possibility that they have racial bias and strive to identify and eliminate any that remains within themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/96 "2015-09-18T19:24:00Z")
I have neither the time nor the inclination to engage in several hundred pages of reading touchy-feely testimonies about how life is unfair. What is _your_ argument against the thesis that murderers deserve to die? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/97 "2015-09-18T19:27:17Z")
Anthony Greenwald is the nation’s leading expert on the study of unconscious bias. It’s fine if you’re too lazy to read his book, but it would be more honest to just admit that you don’t know very much about racism instead of parading all these strongly held opinions that you refuse to examine. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/98 "2015-09-18T19:30:14Z")
I’ll take that to mean you have none, then. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/99 "2015-09-18T19:37:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’ll take that to mean you have none, then. None what? Arguments about what murderers “deserve?” In my view, that’s not even the central question. One can believe murderers deserve to be killed and still think that it’s a bad idea to have such a highly discretionary and irreversible punishment be executed by our deeply flawed systems of justice. I don’t see much point in discussing further. Your position is that there’s no such thing as bias that isn’t intentional and malicious. So this is like discussing the best method of archaeological dating with someone who believes the Earth is 6,000 years old. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/100 "2015-09-18T19:39:38Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > One can believe murderers deserve to be killed and still think that it’s a bad idea to have such a highly discretionary and irreversible punishment be executed by our deeply flawed systems of justice. How? If murderers deserve to die, then anything that stands in the way of that is an obstacle to be resolved, not a reason to give up. To let such things stand in the way of justice is an act of moral cowardice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478.md?page=6)