# Fuck Oklahoma Governor Mary Fallin and Fuck the Death Penalty **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 16, 2015, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478 "2015-09-16T15:15:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/121 "2015-09-18T20:21:30Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Can you dispute this? Sure; the statement “proportional to the nature of the crime committed” is meaningless and, in fact, false. If a person steals a large amount of money, he isn’t punished by merely taking the same amount of money from him. If a person commits perjury, you don’t punish them by telling them a lie. You then go on to say: > [@](#): > > The primary purpose of punishment is to uphold the power of the state by demonstrating the consequences of violating its laws. This is obviously preposterous and with a moment’s thought I don’t even think you believe this is true; you’re just argued into a knot, that’s all. The purpose of punishment is not to “uphold the power of the state,” it’s to maintain social order and promote the general welfare of the populace. If the only purpose was to uphold the power of the state then logically the state would be better off executing everyone for anything. The power of state, in a civilized country, exists solely to, and only to the extent required to, promote the general welfare of the citizenry. [QUOTE=Smapti] If the state has the power to kill while engaged in war, or to protect innocent life, or in the course of enforcing the law, then it follows that they also have the power to kill as a means of punishment. [/QUOTE] No, that does not follow. You’ve made no logical case why that follows. ANYONE has the moral right to kill while defending themselves against a party with deadly intent; what you’re first describing is merely the extension of that concept to the state. Killing in cold blood is not, logically, an extension of that. If it were, then why don’t _I_ have the right to kill people as punishment? I can kill, legally, in self defense, or in war, or to defend an innocent life. So can I shoot my kids as punishment? If that doesn’t logically follow, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/122 "2015-09-18T20:26:41Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The numbers show it is about both the race of the perpetrator and the victim. Per the cite, the numbers show that blacks convicted of murder are less likely to be sentenced to death (and even less likely to be executed) than whites convicted of murder. > [@](#): > > And if you think you have some insight into the numbers because black-on-black crime is more likely to be a different kind of murder, then I strongly encourage you to actually read about this subject instead of browsing some articles on Wikipedia. You might be shocked to learn that there is a decades-old literature that carefully considers the questions that occurred to you in the first 15 minutes of browsing Wikipedia. Conversely, if you think you have any insight into these matters then I strongly urge you to actually share this insight here, instead of making completely pointless claims that someone who reviewed some vast amount of literature would see how right you are. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/123 "2015-09-18T20:41:36Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Per the cite, the numbers show that blacks convicted of murder are less likely to be sentenced to death (and even less likely to be executed) than whites convicted of murder. The entry is a little ambiguously worded so its impossible to tell if it’s making the claim you think it is, but if it is then it is wrong. See for example Figure 5 in the first cite I posed for Smapti. It is absolutely true that race of the victim is a bigger factor than race of the defendant, but false that race of the defendant isn’t a factor. Note also that white-on-black crime is the least likely to be subject to the death penalty, something of a problem for your “gang crime” theory. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Conversely, if you think you have any insight into these matters then I strongly urge you to actually share this insight here, instead of making completely pointless claims that someone who reviewed some vast amount of literature would see how right you are. I’m perfectly content to observe that you have strongly held opinions on a subject about which you evidently lack even the most basic grounding. That’s enough for me to conclude that this isn’t about evidence for you, which makes me not very interested in bringing you up to speed on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/124 "2015-09-18T20:46:35Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Actually on looking around a bit, it seems that there may be even less to the disparity than one might suppose: From [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_States#Among_races)So it’s really about the race of the victim, not the race of the killer. That argues even more strongly in favor of it being circumstantial (e.g. a higher percentage of black-on-black crime being gang wars, or the like). Actually, a major factor is whether or not the person you kill is a stranger, or an innocent bystander. Most murders are inter-race, but blacks murder whites about three times more than whites kill blacks ([cite](https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls)). Other crimes are even more marked - > [@](#): > > In 2012, blacks committed 560,600 acts of violence against whites (excluding homicide), and whites committed 99,403 acts of violence (excluding homicide) against blacks, according to data from the National Crime Victimization Survey provided to the author. Blacks, in other words, committed 85 percent of the non-homicide interracial crimes of violence between blacks and whites, even though they are less than 13 percent of the population. [Cite](http://www.nationalreview.com/article/420565/chon-shooting-obama-race-crime). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/125 "2015-09-18T20:47:09Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Sure; the statement “proportional to the nature of the crime committed” is meaningless and, in fact, false. If a person steals a large amount of money, he isn’t punished by merely taking the same amount of money from him. If a person commits perjury, you don’t punish them by telling them a lie. I said “proportional”. I didn’t say “an eye for an eye”. > [@](#): > > The purpose of punishment is not to “uphold the power of the state,” it’s to maintain social order and promote the general welfare of the populace. I fail to see the difference. > [@](#): > > If the only purpose was to uphold the power of the state then logically the state would be better off executing everyone for anything. That would turn the people against the state and be counter-productive. > [@](#): > > If it were, then why don’t _I_ have the right to kill people as punishment? I can kill, legally, in self defense, or in war, or to defend an innocent life. So can I shoot my kids as punishment? If that doesn’t logically follow, why not? Because all of those rights, except the right to self-defense, are reserved by the state. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/126 "2015-09-18T20:48:09Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Sure. Similarly, the criminal justice system is 100% effective at punishing all criminals. After all, I’ve never heard of a criminal being found guilty who was not then sentenced for punishment. If a person is sentenced to life in prison, there is no obligation that they be permitted to exhaust all their appeals before they can be jailed. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/127 "2015-09-18T20:52:51Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > That would be true if the only variable in justice were seeing that murderers are executed. Most of us believe there are other relevant variables in the justice equation, including not having people receive worse punishments because of their race. That doesn’t follow logically. Executing murderers is how we can not have people receive worse punishments because of their race. Not executing them creates a miscarriage of justice. > [@](#): > > As it stands, our system does not allow you to both execute the worst murderers and do so in a race-neutral fashion. There’s too much bias out there. Then again, you need to produce some kind of evidence in every individual case, that prejudice played some part in the sentencing. Simply asserting that it happens isn’t enough - you need to show some evidence that will overcome the proof of actual guilt. Or else show cases in which white murderers were not executed, and I may agree with you that they should have been. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/128 "2015-09-18T20:58:36Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The entry is a little ambiguously worded so its impossible to tell if it’s making the claim you think it is, but if it is then it is wrong. See for example Figure 5 in the first cite I posed for Smapti. That figure is for a 10 year period in one city. The numbers in Wiki are over a 30 year period for the entire US. > [@](#): > > Note also that white-on-black crime is the least likely to be subject to the death penalty, something of a problem for your “gang crime” theory. I tossed that out as one example. There could be any number of factors. > [@](#): > > I’m perfectly content to observe that you have strongly held opinions on a subject about which you evidently lack even the most basic grounding. That’s enough for me to conclude that this isn’t about evidence for you, which makes me not very interested in bringing you up to speed on the subject. What I said was “I think it’s most likely that …”. How do you get from there to “strongly held opinions”? I think it’s most likely that you’re projecting your own strongly held opinions on the subject. Frankly you seem a bit race-obsessed (IIRC you are a civil-rights attorney, but correct me if I’m wrong about this) and you hijacked this thread which is about a case that has no real racial angle to it into a discussion of a theme much dearer to your heart. In any event, despite your presumed expertise on this matter, you’ve managed to add very little of substance beyond your assertions about how right you are. If that floats your boat, by all means go for it. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/129 "2015-09-18T21:04:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I disagree because life is inherently superior to death, and merely imprisoning someone for life (and the free housing, food, and medical care for the duration of their natural life as part and parcel thereof) is awarding them an infinitely better degree of treatment than they gave their victim/s. So if as a school yard monitor you see Billy throw a rock and hit Jane, then your response would be to throw a rock at Billy so that everything evens out. > [@Smapti](#): > > People who are very nearly executed but exonerated is what proves that the system _works_. Any person who is factually innocent _will_ be proven innocent before the final sentence is carried out. That’s how it should be. So I wrote a 200 page manuscript and read in reading over the first 50 pages, find 10 errors and correct them. Since I didn’t find any errors that I didn’t correct the manuscript must now be error free. > [@Smapti](#): > > A man shoots another man in the head. A police officer sees him and shoots him dead. I think this scenario as written speaks a lot to the reasoning behind your responses in other threads. In that you believe that police who witness a crime should act as judge jury and executioner. The only justifiable reason the police should shoot the man, is if by doing so he can protect someone else who is in immediate danger, not just because he witnessed a murder. With the death penalty there is no immediate danger from the criminal who is already in custody. Therefor the only reason for the death penalty is pure revenge. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/130 "2015-09-18T21:15:06Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > So if as a school yard monitor you see Billy throw a rock and hit Jane, then your response would be to throw a rock at Billy so that everything evens out. My response would be to detain Billy. What my response would _not_ be would be to let Billy go because Trent got detention back in '87 even though Adam said he saw Gary throw the rock at Susan. > [@](#): > > So I wrote a 200 page manuscript and read in reading over the first 50 pages, find 10 errors and correct them. Since I didn’t find any errors that I didn’t correct the manuscript must now be error free. No, you continue checking. You don’t throw the manuscript in the fire because, gee, you’ve found so many typos, surely there _must_ be an its-it’s error that nobody will notice until after it’s been published and it’s too late to undo what you’ve done. > [@](#): > > Therefor the only reason for the death penalty is pure revenge. Is that not enough? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/131 "2015-09-18T21:15:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > A man shoots another man in the head. A police officer sees him and shoots him dead. > > A man shoots another man in the head. No police officer is around to shoot him, but he is eventually arrested, proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, sentenced to death, and executed. > > What is the difference? Is the man any more or less dead? Is he any less deserving of death on the basis that there wasn’t anyone around to kill him on the spot? The difference is the risk of imminent harm; that’s why it is sometimes okay for cops to kill. > [@](#): > > Existence is always preferable to non-existence. You can add that to the list of axioms if you like. Says you, but that doesn’t make it true. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/132 "2015-09-18T21:25:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The difference is the risk of imminent harm; that’s why it is sometimes okay for cops to kill. Only if you completely disregard the notion that people should be punished for the wrongs they commit. > [@](#): > > Says you, but that doesn’t make it true. Find me one dead person who says they’re happier that way. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/133 "2015-09-18T21:47:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Find me one dead person who says they’re happier that way. This is very literally the most idiotic thing I’ve encountered today. And I listened to Limbaugh this morning. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/134 "2015-09-18T21:52:42Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That figure is for a 10 year period in one city. The numbers in Wiki are over a 30 year period for the entire US. I should also add that that graph scales the likelihoods by a “Defendent culpability index”, which means that the study authors assigned each case a score based on severity of crime and defendent prior history and so on, and then ran a regression on the likelihood of death sentence correlated to race and this score. But that scoring is kind of black-boxy, and may not be accurate, and at the least makes the sample size practically a lot smaller than it would otherwise be. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/135 "2015-09-18T22:38:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Only if you completely disregard the notion that people should be punished for the wrongs they commit. No, because it’s entirely possible to be punished with no death penalty. > [@](#): > > Find me one dead person who says they’re happier that way. Human history is replete with live people who report that they’d prefer death to the circumstances they find themselves in, and live people who take action to bring themselves death. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/136 "2015-09-19T00:04:35Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > People who are very nearly executed but exonerated is what proves that the system _works_. Any person who is factually innocent _will_ be proven innocent before the final sentence is carried out. That’s how it should be. Question: If you are arrested, factually innocent, sentenced to death, live on death row behind bars for 18 years, THEN you get proven innocent before you’re executed, will the first words out of your mouth be, “The system works”? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/137 "2015-09-19T00:46:36Z")
this is why I’m not a supporter of the death penalty. not because I don’t believe some people just need to go; they’re few in number but there _are_ broken and unsalvageable folks among us. but that the standard of proof to gain a conviction is “beyond a reasonable doubt.” I’m not comfortable with that standard of proof being sufficient to elect to take someone’s life. A wrongful conviction can be overturned. A wrongful execution cannot. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/138 "2015-09-19T08:02:43Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Question: If you are arrested, factually innocent, sentenced to death, live on death row behind bars for 18 years, THEN you get proven innocent before you’re executed, will the first words out of your mouth be, “The system works”? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/139 "2015-09-19T08:46:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes. Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478/140 "2015-09-19T12:27:30Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes. Only for humans damaged, apparently beyond repair, like yourself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-oklahoma-governor-mary-fallin-and-fuck-the-death-penalty/731478.md?page=8)