# Fuck opioid addicts **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 2, 2018, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988 "2018-02-02T00:18:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![fervour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@fervour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fervour)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988/81 "2018-02-02T20:13:19Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > . . . > > I also occasionally get some for some pretty severe sciatica, but that’s where it gets really dangerous. Taking some for recovering from surgery is one thing, but managing chronic pain is a bit different. You can stop taking it for recovery as you get better, but for chronic pain, how do you manage that? > > . . . . Chronic pain is the worst. You won’t prescribe pain meds----which I understand. Pain meds lead to addiction. But you won’t put me out of my pain. Yet, you do understand that all of those bones are fused. The bones are fused----the ones that are supposed to glide gently against each other. Those bones are fused. And I feel as those bones try to accomodate the daily motion. IT HURTS. and there is no fix. And it’s nobody’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988/82 "2018-02-02T20:20:50Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Define “tolerable”. Doesn’t interfere with daily activities. Someone watching wouldn’t know the person is in pain. Also depends on the source of pain. Joint pain will interfere more than a toothache. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988/83 "2018-02-02T20:39:39Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Define “tolerable”. It’s a relative quantity, but I would say a 6 or less on the pain scale. Hurts, quite noticeably, but it does not demand all of your attention. It also depends on what you are doing. If I am active and doing things, then I don’t notice the pain as much. If I am trying to sleep, sometimes I need to take just a bit more off the pain. ---
**Author:** ![Clarisse\_McClellan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Clarisse\_McClellan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clarisse_McClellan)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988/84 "2018-02-02T23:18:46Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I see these kind of anecdotes about overprescribing frequently, and while I’m not accusing you of making it up, nor disputing that (some) doctors or dentists have prescribed more than necessary, some of the claims are difficult to believe, assuming we’re talking about legit practitioners and not quacks running pill mills… I apologize, In my anger at UCBearcats I had a brain fart, it was 30 days not 60 which I freely admit sounds ridiculous and I dont blame people for wondering. But 30 days is still absurd and unnecessary for dental surgery and my argument still stands. As someone upthread said, if your still in pain a week later you go back to the dentist. > [@Broomstick](#): > > If they are taking it for pain and are not getting high then _they are NOT addicts_. They may be physically dependent on them, which is a side effect of long-term treatment with any opiate, but that alone does not make them an addict as the term is commonly used . As you mentioned, your FIL came off them once already and if the source of his pain was eliminated presumably he could do so again. They are addicts who display the behavior of addicts. They have stolen medication from other family members and question everyone about medical procedures they may have had or are having that might remotely require pain meds and FIL turns into Bilbo Baggins seeing the ring when anyone mentions says they have some. They are taking it for pain but they are also taking it to feel normal. People so addicted that they commit crimes to obtain money or drugs are NOT doing to get high, they are doing it because not taking it makes them feel like dying from withdrawal symptoms. > [@](#): > > One problem is that we don’t have very good solutions for _chronic_ pain. Opiates are really best for acute pain because, as you note, long-term opiate treatment has problems. Yet we don’t want to leave people with severe, chronic pain in agony, either. On the other hand, our society/insurance agencies don’t want to pay for the alternatives that actually can help because they cost money and require the assistance of trained human beings who need to be paid for their work, like physical therapists. This is very true but there are conditions that physical therapy cannot fix which is why there is a need for pain medication that is not addictive but there is no impetus for that to happen right now because money is the only motivator. If the pharmaceutical companies have to start paying out large sums in settlements or the majority of doctors stop prescribing them then maybe they will be motivated. > [@asahi](#): > > Even in the case of illicit drugs, a lot of the people - probably the overwhelming majority - are drawn to them because of some sort of underlying emotional problem. Are we saying ‘Fuck anyone who has an emotional problem’? > > How about fuck our society for criminalizing self-medication and ruining their lives and the lives of their families, while turning a blind eye to legalized drug trafficking by corporate ‘people’. ICAM. People dont just decide one day to become a meth head or an opioid addict. They are using to mask either a physical or emotional pain but because we have a culture which only just now, barely, acknowledges the damage of emotional trauma and the stigma of mental illnes and the cost of treating it, people especially young people, self-medicate. I have had chronic debiliating pain so severe it led me to consider whether I could stand one more day but I was unbelievably lucky in that surgery fixed my problem. The callousness in this thread must be from people who never have had such pain. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988/85 "2018-02-03T01:31:55Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > On the upside, though, at least in my neighborhood, we have fewer garages, car trunks, hotel rooms, double-wides, and houses blowing up due to amateur chemistry by meth-heads. Several years ago, I read that some medical ethicists were discussing whether people who blow themselves up in meth lab explosions should receive any medical treatment beyond comfort care. :eek: I’ve looked for a link and can’t find one. I did see a show about meth addiction on IIRC NatGeo, and they said that the burn unit at Vanderbilt University Hospital had, in recent years, given $300 million in charity care each year to people who had done this. That’s simply mind-boggling, and I find it quite believable. ---
**Author:** ![Jennshark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Jennshark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jennshark)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988/86 "2018-02-03T01:33:21Z")
Alcohol kills vastly, vastly more people, can be insanely addictive, and is available in unlimited quantities at your local 7-11. Drunk drivers are 17.8 times more likely to cause a fatal car accident than opiate-impaired drivers. I wonder how many self-righteous “let them scumbucket pill addicts die” are moderate to heavy drinkers? I know a few myself who would be in a world of hurt if alcohol became illegal. All to say: there but for the grace of God go I . . . BTW: I’m in favor of legalizing most drugs. I don’t care for alcohol, so it should be made illegal. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988/87 "2018-02-03T01:35:52Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I see these kind of anecdotes about overprescribing frequently, and while I’m not accusing you of making it up, nor disputing that (some) doctors or dentists have prescribed more than necessary, some of the claims are difficult to believe, assuming we’re talking about legit practitioners and not quacks running pill mills. That’s like 240 pills, give or take. I’ve had major surgery more than once and have never been prescribed that many pain pills at one time, even in the Wild West days before the “opioid epidemic” began to be take shape— nor has my wife, or family members, or anyone else I know. Even 60 tablets would be overdoing it. Most of the dental prescriptions I filled over the years, regardless of what they were written for, were for 10 or 20 doses. I had a lot of dental work a few years ago, and the dentist gave me an RX for 20 Vicodins. I never took any for that, but I sure was glad to have them when I had my breast cancer surgeries last fall. I took 3 of them after the first one and none after the second. In the meantime, I also took one when I had a nasty sinus infection and another when I burned myself on the oven grate. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988/88 "2018-02-03T01:39:46Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > When I see these anecdotes, I also never see what types of pills we are talking about. My only use of opiates has been in the form of 5mg vicodin (with acetaminophen), which I usually broke in half. You could probably manage to get addicted off of that, but you’d have to work a lot harder to do so than if you are being prescribed 60mg Oxy straight. Again, the oxycodone I saw prescribed by dentists was Percocet, which is 5mg of oxycodone and 325mg of acetaminophen. A 60mg OxyContin tablet would probably kill an opiate-naive patient. Seeing an RX for this from any doctor other than an oncologist, hospice physician, or the doctors at the legitimate pain clinic would raise flags, especially if we didn’t know the patient. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988/89 "2018-02-03T01:43:56Z")
> [@Jennshark](#): > > I don’t care for alcohol, so it should be made illegal. We already tried that. It didn’t work very well. The drug that almost 100% of addicts start out with is actually tobacco. Good luck getting THAT banned. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988/90 "2018-02-03T02:48:03Z")
One of the problems we have is recognizing that different drugs affect different people in different ways. I hate opioids and won’t take them anymore unless I’m in really serious pain, like operation pain. And even then, a maximum of like 2 vicodin a day (morning and night). I like Flexeril, it works for me. But I also take at most, one per day. Usually if I’m taking it because I hurt like hell, it’s going to be a half pill, maybe a second half 12 hours later. I tend to get one prescription per year of 30 pills and it lasts me almost the entire year. (And my laundry list of physical issues would make you scream from sympathy pain, even though you can’t see any of it.) I like Marijuana. It’s great for me and I can function very well on it. It magically erases my depression. It, especially the CBD varieties, lessons my physical pain. My two sisters both tried it when they were younger and didn’t like it. It didn’t work the same way for them. Sadly, I can’t use it right now because I’m looking for a job. I don’t like alcohol. I don’t like the taste, effects and I don’t like how it feels when it is in my bloodstream, because I have this odd ability to ‘taste’ things in my blood. I drink the occasional dark beer, have the occasional shot of good single malt. But I don’t drink to get drunk and haven’t done that since I was much younger. Some people take opioids and go “Holy shit! This makes me feel GREAT!”, which is basically the same thing Heroin does to you. Then you want to keep getting that feeling, which is how people get addicted. And in many respects, you can look at our modern society and how we’ve moved from one abused drug to another as being people’s search for something that either blots out their pain (mental or physical), or makes them feel good. Unfortunately, most of the things that do that are also seriously addicting and build tolerances that force people to use more and more to achieve the same effect. Kurt Angle, the WWE (and former TNA) wrestler admitted that, at the height of his addiction, **he was taking 65 extra strength Vicodin a day**. An amount that would outright kill any of us. Now, where he was getting them from was never addressed and I’d hope those people were prosecuted for it, but that may be wishful thinking on my part. The point being that he was taking a ludicrous amount of opioids per day just to “function normally”, for whatever value of “normally” he was experiencing at the time. He was never the unemployed loser druggie that some people think of when they think “Opioid addict”. He was making solid six to low seven figures every year. Just a few random thoughts for this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Jennshark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Jennshark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jennshark)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988/91 "2018-02-03T03:20:17Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > We already tried that. It didn’t work very well. > > The drug that almost 100% of addicts start out with is actually tobacco. Good luck getting THAT banned. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988/92 "2018-02-03T03:37:12Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > … > > Some people take opioids and go “Holy shit! This makes me feel GREAT!”, which is basically the same thing Heroin does to you. Then you want to keep getting that feeling, which is how people get addicted. > > … Which is how **some** people get addicted. Others started taking opioids for legitimate pain. If you take opioids long enough you almost certainly will become addicted. Not stealing from family, blowjobs in the alley addicted, but dependent on narcotics for feeling “normal”. If you are lucky, you don’t have to up your dosage to maintain equilibrium. If you are really lucky your doctor will continue to prescribe the drugs. This is a large subset of the opioid using population. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988/93 "2018-02-03T03:52:04Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > Which is how **some** people get addicted. Did ya read the rest of my post? The Kurt Angle part? ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988/94 "2018-02-03T04:30:06Z")
I did. My post was mostly in relation to the single sentence of “…which is how people get addicted.” Your post, including the Kurt Angle part, doesn’t mention starting to use opioids for legitimate pain. Speaking of Kurt Angle, I don’t believe him. The lethal dose of acetaminophen is as little as 10 grams a day. 20 grams almost certainly. Another formula gives 150 mg/kg as a lethal dose. Google lists that guy at a nice round 220 lbs or 100 kg. That would make 15 grams of acetaminophen a lethal dose. If he was taking 65 Vicodin a day, that is 19.5 grams of acetaminophen each day. Unlike opioids, your body doesn’t develop a tolerance to acetaminophen. You develop hepatotoxicity which which makes you increasingly susceptible to acetaminophen OD. I work with addicts all the time. They lie. A lot. Also, you know, pro wrestling… I suppose he could have some sort of super liver. Like a said, I was addressing the how people get addicted part. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988/95 "2018-02-03T05:18:34Z")
> [@Clarisse\_McClellan](#): > > They are addicts who display the behavior of addicts. They have stolen medication from other family members and question everyone about medical procedures they may have had or are having that might remotely require pain meds and FIL turns into Bilbo Baggins seeing the ring when anyone mentions says they have some. OK, but you didn’t describe that behavior in your initial post, from what you wrote it sounded like strictly a pain-relief situation not an addictive behavior situation. > [@](#): > > This is very true but there are conditions that physical therapy cannot fix which is why there is a need for pain medication that is not addictive but there is no impetus for that to happen right now because money is the only motivator. If the pharmaceutical companies have to start paying out large sums in settlements or the majority of doctors stop prescribing them then maybe they will be motivated. What if there isn’t something better that what we have now? Waving money around won’t magically make something happen. We have opiates - the go-to for acute and malignant pain, problems with long-term use. We have ibuprofen - which can screw up your kidneys. We have acetaminophen - which can destroy your liver. We have alcohol - popular for self-medication but has its own addiction issues AND it can also destroy your liver, among other side effects. We have aspirin - which can cause hemorrhaging. We have cocaine - which can cause heart attacks and also has addiction issues. Then there’s a grab bag of stuff like muscle relaxers, anti-seizure drugs, pot, and others that will work in some situations but not others, some people but not others, and by which mechanisms we often little certainty about. Also yoga, physical therapy, and even stuff like meditation that, again, works for some but not others and we often don’t know why. Got any other ideas? Because the world would really, really like to know. There is _no perfect answer_. Finding a better painkiller would be a trillion-dollar deal, there is already plenty of motivation to find one, there is no conspiracy to prevent the discovery and development of a new painkiller. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988/96 "2018-02-03T05:34:29Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > Shit tablets, cold medicine, lawn darts. Shoot, a fella’ could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988/97 "2018-02-03T05:51:12Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > Which is how **some** people get addicted. Others started taking opioids for legitimate pain. If you take opioids long enough you almost certainly will become addicted. Not stealing from family, blowjobs in the alley addicted, but dependent on narcotics for feeling “normal”. If you are lucky, you don’t have to up your dosage to maintain equilibrium. If you are really lucky your doctor will continue to prescribe the drugs. > > This is a large subset of the opioid using population. If a person is dependent on medication, their quality of life goes up. If a person is addicted to medication, their QOL goes down. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988/98 "2018-02-03T06:02:50Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > If a person is dependent on medication, their quality of life goes up. If a person is addicted to medication, their QOL goes down. I am not familiar with that way of phrasing it. I could argue it, but the way you stated it makes it appear as if that is a aphorism of pharmaceutical science? ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988/99 "2018-02-03T06:47:25Z")
There’s a little bit of overlap, but that is generally the case. People who use abusable drugs (not just opiates) legitimately may become physically addicted to them, but they usually do not take more than what is prescribed and if the pain, physical or mental, goes away, they have absolutely no desire to stay on the meds afterwards. Yes, they often need to be weaned off them but that is not the same as detox. p.s. One of my classmates died from ODing on stolen drugs, and two others have lost their licenses, permanently or temporarily, for the same thing (drug diversion). Looking back, I’m not surprised by any of that; we could tell that they were becoming pharmacists to have access to drugs, and believe me, there are easier ways to do it. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988/100 "2018-02-03T13:36:36Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If they are taking it for pain and are not getting high then _they are NOT addicts_. They may be physically dependent on them, which is a side effect of long-term treatment with any opiate, but that alone does not make them an addict as the term is commonly used . Thank you. Speaking as a long term pain control contract patient. > [@fervour](#): > > Chronic pain is the worst. You won’t prescribe pain meds----which I understand. Pain meds lead to addiction. But you won’t put me out of my pain. > > Yet, you do understand that all of those bones are fused. The bones are fused----the ones that are supposed to glide gently against each other. Those bones are fused. And I feel as those bones try to accomodate the daily motion. IT HURTS. and there is no fix. And it’s nobody’s fault. One of my issues is my body deciding that my vertebrae don’t need that pesky space for my nerves to pass through, nor does it seem to mind diverting part of my calcium from my bones to artisically add new and interesting shape to my bones by adding spurs and impingements. This winter has been absolute hell for me, and bluntly put, I have spent any time not soaked up by physio and doctor visits pretty much totally horizontal in my bed with any non-in house interaction with the outside world by phone and my tablet. between pills and diclofenac gel I muddle along. If I had access to the green whistle or that magic morphine pump button, I fully admit there would be days that I would be sorely tempted to join Coleridge in his opium dreams in the pleasure domes of Kublai Khan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-opioid-addicts/807988.md?page=6)