# Fuck S&P. You made a $2 trillion mistake and it's full CYA. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 7, 2011, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806 "2011-08-07T05:07:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806/21 "2011-08-07T15:30:53Z")
And how exactly do we “get our shit together?” By embracing the Tea Party austerity agenda? This rating has nothing to do with the short-term financial strength of the US and everything to do with politics. S&P is a corrupt company that should have received the corporate death penalty a long time ago, and I find it offensive that they’re making judgments and unduly influencing the political debate with a budget analysis largely pulled out of their asses. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806/22 "2011-08-07T15:47:19Z")
I don’t see how they are trying to unduly influence the political debate. If you read the full text of their statement they take pains to state that they are intentionally agnostic as to what particular mixture of spending cuts and revenue increases we use to move toward balancing the budget. They also do not lay any blame on one particular party for the brinksmanship that almost caused us to default. They simply use the medium-term budget problems and brinksmanship as reasons for their downgrade. If they wanted to blame one party, they would have blamed one party. That said, I don’t put much stock in ratings agencies since several years before the housing crash. It was pretty obvious that they’ve been pulling ratings out of their ass for almost a decade, so there’s no reason to trust what they say now. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806/23 "2011-08-07T15:51:43Z")
The fact that they’re doing it at all, based on a completely dubious analysis, unduly influences the debate. Witness all the people freaking out about it. Do they know that S&P made a $2 trillion mistake? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806/24 "2011-08-07T15:53:55Z")
The actual level of US debt isn’t terribly troubling. That’s why a $2T error doesn’t matter. Yeah, the debt’s high, and getting higher, and frankly getting into dangerous territory, but it’s not critical yet and won’t be unless nothing is done about it for a fair long while. However, the US Congress has just told the world that there is a non-zero chance that the US might default on its debt. Think about that for a minute. There’s no real question that the US is wealthy enough to make good on its debt. There is now a real question about whether it might be politically willing to make good on its debt. I have to agree with S&P that if I’m looking for the absolute safest place to put my money, that place is no longer T-bills. I would think the sovereign debt of several other countries is safer, given that they have similarly high levels of wealth and responsible, adult governance as well. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806/25 "2011-08-07T15:58:35Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > The actual level of US debt isn’t terribly troubling. That’s why a $2T error doesn’t matter. Yeah, the debt’s high, and getting higher, and frankly getting into dangerous territory, but it’s not critical yet and won’t be unless nothing is done about it for a fair long while. Here’s what S&P said: > [@](#): > > The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the administration recently agreed to falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilize the government’s medium-term debt dynamics. In other words, we’re not attacking the deficit enough to S&P’s liking. They are telling people that the debt is a problem NOW NOW NOW, and has to be dealt with if the US wants to be rated AAA. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806/26 "2011-08-07T16:00:42Z")
Medium term = NOW NOW NOW? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806/27 "2011-08-07T16:00:45Z")
> [@](#): > > And how exactly do we “get our shit together?” I imagine by some combination of reducing spending and increasing taxes. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806/28 "2011-08-07T16:07:11Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Medium term = NOW NOW NOW? They want it dealt with now. That’s why they referred to the recent deal. It didn’t attack the deficit enough, hence the downgrade. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806/29 "2011-08-07T16:10:47Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > And how exactly do we “get our shit together?” By embracing the Tea Party austerity agenda? You do whatever is necessary to avoid default, and the perception that you might default. This would probably mean moving as far from the Tea Party as possible. The level of debt is an issue, but not a major one. The issue is whether the US can and will continue to service that debt. For the first time in history, there is some doubt about this. Look, a default would destroy the American economy, and severely damage the world economy. It seems to me that bitching about being called on it is the least productive response. (The last sentence is a general statement, not directed at any particular poster). ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806/30 "2011-08-07T16:18:59Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Here’s what S&P said: > > In other words, we’re not attacking the deficit enough to S&P’s liking. They are telling people that the debt is a problem NOW NOW NOW, and has to be dealt with if the US wants to be rated AAA. Do you think they would have downgraded if a clean debt ceiling bill with no conditions had been passed? No. The spending cut provisions are only relevant to the extent that they’re indicative of what Congress is going to be able to agree to come budget time, which is to say, Congress is going to be deadlocked and incapable of agreeing to a budget, and the tough decisions that need to be made (either to raise taxes or to seriously cut defense and social security/medicare) aren’t going to be made. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806/31 "2011-08-07T16:24:59Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > Only a modern day Republican could equate two broken windows to a $2 trillion error. > > You can preach gloom, doom and fear but that doesn’t solve anything. You’ve got to have a place to live. The house has to be fixed but the Republicans are intent on tearing it down while taking no responsibility for the fact that they let it deteriorate into the condition that it is in. Yep, in this case the Republicans are like the people you see on “Hoarders.” They let their houses go to shit, and then when somebody comes in to try to help them clean up the place, they spend the whole time bitching and moaning and getting in their way. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806/32 "2011-08-07T16:40:22Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > " They let their houses go to shit, and then when somebody comes in to try to help them clean up the place, they spend the whole time bitching and moaning and getting in their way. Can you give 3 specific examples of things the Republicans did which are analogous to the activities of these hoarders? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806/33 "2011-08-07T16:41:16Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Can you give 3 specific examples of things the Republicans did which are analogous to the activities of these hoarders? 1. Bitching 2. Moaning 3. Getting in the way ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806/34 "2011-08-07T16:43:28Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > 1. Bitching Can you link to a newspaper article which gives the particulars of this “bitching”? i.e. something that quotes the Republicans in question and provides the relevant dates, times, and places? Same thing for “moaning” and “getting in the way.” ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806/35 "2011-08-07T16:44:44Z")
I just posted this in the other S&P thread in GD, but I thought here would be a good place too. [ > [@S&P (PDF Warning)](#): > > Compared with previous projections, our revised base case scenario now > assumes that the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts, due to expire by the end of 2012, > remain in place. We have changed our assumption on this **because the majority > of Republicans in Congress continue to resist any measure that would raise > revenues**, a position we believe Congress reinforced by passing the act. ]([http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/af2c4fac-bfc2-11e0-90d5-00144feabdc0.pdf](http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/af2c4fac-bfc2-11e0-90d5-00144feabdc0.pdf))Emphasis mine. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806/36 "2011-08-07T16:48:08Z")
Question for those who believe the rating makes sense, given the current circumstances…France is currently rated AAA, yet they do not control their own currency, have a much more generous welfare state, and are experiencing the same kind of banking issues the US has experienced. So what exactly merits France’s higher rating? ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806/37 "2011-08-07T17:01:08Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I bow to your succinctness.🙂 > > Blah, blah, blah, ‘someone else’s fault’, blah, blah, blah, ‘everything would be solved if it wasn’t for them’, blah, blah. > > You couldn’t get health care when you had a majority with the President and Congress. > You can’t sort out the debt crisis when you have the Presidency and the Senate. Maybe you should look a little closer to home as to why you can’t get shit done rather than blame others. If I kept going to my boss, crying like a little girl about how others aren’t playing fair, I’d be out on my ass in short order. Boo hoo, learn to rule when you’re in power. Your boss should probably fire you for incompetence and not paying attention. The country was in prime position to start to get its financial house in order when Bush took over with a Republican Senate, House and the Supreme Court. So what did he do? Cut taxes for the wealthy, ran up huge deficits, started an unprovoked foreign war, then signed a Medicare drug bill that was unfunded. If the Republicans were who they claim to be they would have jumped on the opportunity they had and would have made it work. But they are not who they claim to be, they are total hypocrites. Meanwhile lack of regulation and lack of enforcement of regulations allowed a huge financial crisis to build. After screwing it all up they leave it to the next guy and second guess why he can turn a battleship around in a canal. Talk about crybabies. They take no responsibility while blaming everything on others. The whole House agenda isn’t to get anything done or solve any problems, it’s to obstruct the President. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806/38 "2011-08-07T17:07:56Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Can you link to a newspaper article which gives the particulars of this “bitching”? i.e. something that quotes the Republicans in question and provides the relevant dates, times, and places? > > Same thing for “moaning” and “getting in the way.” **brazil84** apparently doesn’t read the news. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806/39 "2011-08-07T17:12:58Z")
LOL. Ratings agencies: the new Al-Qaeda In case people haven’t got it yet; the markets are telling the USA its the system of Gov - while unique and entertaining - is not worth a wank in the financial world if it can’t deliver certainly and clarity in timely fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806/40 "2011-08-07T17:25:09Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Boo hoo, learn to rule when you’re in power. You might want to check this detail: the United States isn’t a monarchy or a fascist state. Just because one side has the majority doesn’t give them the right to “rule”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-s-p-you-made-a-2-trillion-mistake-and-its-full-cya/591806.md?page=3)