# Fuck the Army (re: LaVena Johnson) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 30, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785 "2008-06-30T16:51:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/41 "2008-07-01T05:55:48Z")
If I recall, rape (and other crimes) doesn’t occur on US military bases at a higher rate than any other similar sized population group. However, the cover-up mentality is frustrating to me. Why not just say that her death is “under investigation”? This “cover-up mentality” is not unique to the military. It can be seen in other governmental or beauracratic institutions, like the police departments, hospitals, and even university administrations. Generally, someone is worried that the incident in question will make them (or their institution) look bad, so they try to CYA their way around it. And usually, the CYA job gets flubbed. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/42 "2008-07-01T06:32:36Z")
[QUOTE=mlees] If I recall, rape (and other crimes) doesn’t occur on US military bases at a higher rate than any other similar sized population group… [/QUOTE] Given the conditions of control that apply on a military base, how is that in any way reassuring? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/43 "2008-07-01T07:58:53Z")
[QUOTE=mlees] If I recall, rape (and other crimes) doesn’t occur on US military bases at a higher rate than any other similar sized population group. [/QUOTE] And why should anyone believe that ? The military is known to have a habit of ignoring complaints of rape and sexual assault, or only lightly punishing the perpetrators. And they’ve never been shy about lying. And even if it’s true, that doesn’t say a thing about military academies, troops in the field, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/44 "2008-07-01T13:45:40Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Given the conditions of control that apply on a military base, how is that in any way reassuring? [/QUOTE] In my experience (limited, I grant you), there is very little more “control” on base than outside of one. Just the _access on to_ a base is controlled. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/45 "2008-07-01T13:47:27Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] And why should anyone believe that ? The military is known to have a habit of ignoring complaints of rape and sexual assault, or only lightly punishing the perpetrators. And they’ve never been shy about lying. And even if it’s true, that doesn’t say a thing about military academies, troops in the field, and so on. [/QUOTE] It should go without saying that I would be delighted to review any cites you wish to offer that crime occurs at a higher rate in the US Armed Forces. I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/46 "2008-07-01T13:49:13Z")
[QUOTE=mlees] In my experience (limited, I grant you), there is very little more “control” on base than outside of one. Just the _access on to_ a base is controlled. [/QUOTE] For the few bases I was stationed at, that is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/47 "2008-07-01T14:01:17Z")
[QUOTE=Linty Fresh] It’s made up of human beings that at present are caught up quite far above their heads thanks to a situation brought about by the idiocy, arrogance, and short-sightedness of quite possibly the worst president in 150 years. [/quote] [QUOTE=Bill Door] Remember back in 1989 when an accidental explosion caused by among other things, bad powder, resulted in 47 deaths aboard the USS Iowa? The Navy first tried to blame it on a gay sailor in an unhappy relationship committing suicide. [Here’s](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/06/13/RV97469.DTL) an article reviewing a book about the incident. Navy statements immediately after the event were homophobic, even to me, and I’m not the most sensitive of men. I paraphrased the Navy statements as claiming two gay sailors got in a snit over who used the last of the coral pink nail polish. It wasn’t quite that bad, but it wasn’t much better. [/QUOTE] So George H. W. Bush was the worst president in 150 years? > [@Linty Fresh](#): > > …I’m on the part where British troops are mopping up after the mutiny and fighting of 1857 and 1858. What many did to the women and children of towns they reoccupied was beyond barbaric, it was unspeakable. Wait… so _James Buchanan_ was the worst President in 150 years? Hmmm… might have a point there, actually Not sure how Buchanan influenced British troops during the Raj, though. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/48 "2008-07-01T14:18:46Z")
[QUOTE=AudreyK] When the Army’s integrity is called into question to this degree, I don’t find a rolleyes a very convincing counterpoint. [/QUOTE] That depends on the credibility of the question-caller, really. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/49 "2008-07-01T14:47:19Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Oh, _hints_ we got plenty. Exactly when that translates to “no doubt” is less clear. But hey, don’t let me rain on your parant. [/QUOTE] Way to move the goalposts there, **Bryan**. You said there is no evidence. The OP lists lots of evidence. When \*\*DT \*\* pointed out that there is evidence, you changed your story to “no doubt.” I’m not sure when “no doubt” became the standard for anything (reasonable doubt, I have heard of), but you said there was no evidence. You were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Hamadryad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6de8d8/32.png) [@Hamadryad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamadryad)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/50 "2008-07-01T14:52:06Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Because pretending that the military is noble and righteous and honorable is more important than **making** it noble and righteous and honorable, not to mention easier. [/QUOTE] THIS. When our military spends as much effort investigating the facts on a case like this as they do propagating the “correct” message… When our military leaders concentrate as hard on getting results as they do assigning blame… When the military stops saying things like “Gays are harmful to morale but felons and the mentally deficient are A-OK”… … THEN I will be inclined to listen to you ya-yas who meet any criticism of the military with “:rolleyes:” or “You just don’t know” or “You’re a coward.” (And those of you who think, “If you haven’t served you just don’t know!” I have to assume that you actively participate in every job/activity/hobby YOU criticize as well.) ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/51 "2008-07-01T20:53:46Z")
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil] I can’t argue with this except to show just how jaded we have become. [/QUOTE] I don’t see it as having become jaded, as I never held the military in very high esteem. We need our military, and everyone who serves is doing something I don’t want to do, but I don’t view it with the same awe and sparkle that I know many here do. I respect those who serve, especially those who make lifetime commitments, and the unique sacrifices military families have to make. But to me, service is a choice, not a duty. I do not believe the lines that the military is out there fighting to preserve our freedoms or to bring democracy to other countries. Armed forces serve a country’s interests, and that is not always the same as being righteous and honorable. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/52 "2008-07-01T20:56:03Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] Way to move the goalposts there, **Bryan**. You said there is no evidence. The OP lists lots of evidence. When \*\*DT \*\* pointed out that there is evidence, you changed your story to “no doubt.” I’m not sure when “no doubt” became the standard for anything (reasonable doubt, I have heard of), but you said there was no evidence. You were wrong. [/QUOTE] “No doubt” was **Der Trihs’** phrase. Where is the actual evidence that she was raped by her comrades, and where is the actual evidence of the subsequent coverup? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/53 "2008-07-01T21:50:07Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] Way to move the goalposts there, **Bryan**. You said there is no evidence. The OP lists lots of evidence. When \*\*DT \*\* pointed out that there is evidence, you changed your story to “no doubt.” I’m not sure when “no doubt” became the standard for anything (reasonable doubt, I have heard of), but you said there was no evidence. You were wrong. [/QUOTE] I said “no doubt” because Der Trihs said “no doubt”. And if there’s evidence she was raped, and more specifically that she was raped “by her comrades” and that subsequent actions demonstrate “no doubt it was an attempt to cover up”, lay it on me. We have some unusual circumstances, certainly, worthy of further examination. How this jumps to a “no doubt” conclusion escapes me. Plus he’s being a jerk about it, but that’s a side issue. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/54 "2008-07-01T22:17:44Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] I said “no doubt” because Der Trihs said “no doubt”. And if there’s evidence she was raped, and more specifically that she was raped “by her comrades” and that subsequent actions demonstrate “no doubt it was an attempt to cover up”, lay it on me. We have some unusual circumstances, certainly, worthy of further examination. How this jumps to a “no doubt” conclusion escapes me. [/QUOTE] Ah, and now we have the word nitpicker hijack. Forget about the issues; just divert the argument into a relentlessly literal minded hijack & criticism of someone using a quite common phrase like “no doubt”. That way, we can have a three page argument over word usage and hopefully the whole issue of rape in the military will be buried. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/55 "2008-07-01T22:52:51Z")
It’s not nitpicking to react with skepticism to the unfounded. Johnson could’ve been raped and murdered. If she was, and her assailant(s) can be identified, I hope they get the maximum penalty allowable by law, and (sure, why not) get sent to a Federal pound-me-in-the-ass facility. But “no doubt” she was raped and murdered, and raped and murdered by other soldiers, and there’s an active cover-up…? Hey, that’s great, you’ve staked out a quaint little homestead in jump-to-conclusion land. Your neighbors include people who’ve made similar statements about other mysteries: “No doubt a bunch of black guys did it and the liberal bleeding-hearts are covering it up.” “No doubt a bunch of Jews did it and the ZOG is covering it up.” “No doubt a bunch of commie atheists did it and satanists in the government are covering it up.” “No doubt a bunch of fags did it and the Democrats are covering it up.” “No doubt a bunch of Area 51 aliens did it and the Air Force is covering it up.” It may very well be true that Johnson was raped and murdered by one or more soldiers. Such crimes are not unknown in the military. Some of us would like to see some actual evidence before smearing entire groups and claiming pride in doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/56 "2008-07-01T22:59:53Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] But “no doubt” she was raped and murdered, and raped and murdered by other soldiers, and there’s an active cover-up…? Hey, that’s great, you’ve staked out a quaint little homestead in jump-to-conclusion land. Your neighbors include people who’ve made similar statements about other mysteries: “No doubt a bunch of black guys did it and the liberal bleeding-hearts are covering it up.” “No doubt a bunch of Jews did it and the ZOG is covering it up.” “No doubt a bunch of commie atheists did it and satanists in the government are covering it up.” “No doubt a bunch of fags did it and the Democrats are covering it up.” “No doubt a bunch of Area 51 aliens did it and the Air Force is covering it up.” [/QUOTE] A false comparison, since none of those things had a history of happening. On the other hand, as pointed out, the American military DOES have a history of covering up the murders of it’s personnel. And now we are at the stage where you try to ridicule away criticism of the military by comparing it to crazy paranoia and bigotry. All you are doing is underlining your indifference to the victims; I don’t believe for a moment you want crimes like this investigated, or the people responsible punished, or for anything to happen but a cover up so we can all bask in the myth of our Knight In Shining Armor military. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/57 "2008-07-01T23:09:51Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] A false comparison, since none of those things had a history of happening. [/quote] Well, individual blacks, Jews, homosexuals and commie atheists have certainly committed crimes (I’m sure I can find examples of all of the above) and jerks have used these crimes to gleefully paint entire groups, so aside from the fanciful reference to aliens (who probably don’t exist, though jerks obsessed with them certainly do), what about any of this doesn’t have a history of happening? > [@](#): > > I don’t believe for a moment you want crimes like this investigated, or the people responsible punished, or for anything to happen but a cover up so we can all bask in the myth of our Knight In Shining Armor military. That’s your right, of course, as is your right to believe all kinds of things without evidence, just like any theist. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/58 "2008-07-01T23:38:57Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Well, individual blacks, Jews, homosexuals and commie atheists have certainly committed crimes (I’m sure I can find examples of all of the above) and jerks have used these crimes to gleefully paint entire groups, so aside from the fanciful reference to aliens (who probably don’t exist, though jerks obsessed with them certainly do), what about any of this doesn’t have a history of happening? [/quote] Most or all of it. ZOG ? Government satanists ? Yeah, right. [QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] That’s your right, of course, as is your right to believe all kinds of things without evidence, just like any theist. [/QUOTE] And yet ANOTHER attempt to divert the thread onto another topic, this time religion. You really, really don’t want people to be discussing the military’s misdeeds, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/59 "2008-07-01T23:47:25Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Most or all of it. ZOG ? Government satanists ? Yeah, right. [/quote] I’m a little surprised I really need to explain this, but those are examples of crimes irrationally blamed on groups, with other groups accused of complicity. As I see it, the example you provide is not significantly different. > [@](#): > > And yet ANOTHER attempt to divert the thread onto another topic, this time religion. You really, really don’t want people to be discussing the military’s misdeeds, obviously. Nah, just to needle you for my own amusement. Go ahead and discuss your little heart out. Us soldier types will stand guard while you do. ---
**Author:** ![Fionn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Fionn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fionn)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2008, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/60 "2008-07-02T00:16:09Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] It may very well be true that Johnson was raped and murdered by one or more soldiers. Such crimes are not unknown in the military. Some of us would like to see some actual evidence before smearing entire groups and claiming pride in doing so. [/QUOTE] What evidence would you consider acceptable, a video? Audio tape of a coroner openly stating that he or she would leave evidence of physical trauma out of the official report so the military could claim it was just another soldier-beats-self-pours-acid-on-genitals-glues-gloves-to-hands-shoots-self-in-head and avoid admitting a soldier might have been raped and murdered by another soldier? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785.md?page=4)