# Fuck the Army (re: LaVena Johnson) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 30, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785 "2008-06-30T16:51:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/81 "2008-07-03T15:33:17Z")
[QUOTE=Cartooniverse] Will “us soldier types” be as quick to approve of prosecution and imprisonment of soldiers who raped and murdered this woman? One would certainly hope so. Since this story isn’t going anywhere, we all await your even-handed support of the military judicial system with baited breath. Because, you know, that oath you took? The one about defending the country? There’s women in this country. They deserve to be defended too. Even against you soldier types. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] First of all, it’s “bated breath.” Secondly, every vet who’s checked in here, **Bryan** included, has expressed a desire to see this investigated thorougly and if something happened for the guilty to be punished, so I don’t know where you’re getting this. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/82 "2008-07-03T15:35:20Z")
[QUOTE=Linty Fresh] First of all, it’s “bated breath.” Secondly, every vet who’s checked in here, **Bryan** included, has expressed a desire to see this investigated thorougly and if something happened for the guilty to be punished, so I don’t know where you’re getting this. [/QUOTE] Seconded. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/83 "2008-07-03T15:55:05Z")
Thirded. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/84 "2008-07-03T16:55:51Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] I said “no doubt” because Der Trihs said “no doubt”. [/quote] Which is why I would’ve left wiggle room and gone with “LITTLE doubt.” :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > And if there’s evidence she was raped See, that’s something we just don’t know, not just if there was evidence she was raped but if that possibility was looked into at the autopsy, though it should be SOP. > [@](#): > > …and more specifically that she was raped “by her comrades” Given the difficulty getting onto a base, especially in a warzone, and that [(a) woman is four times more likely to be raped by an acquaintance than by a stranger,](http://www.icasa.org/docs/acquaintance_rape_brochure.pdf) it is safe to conclude the crime was probably committed by one of her comrades. > [@](#): > > … and that subsequent actions demonstrate “no doubt it was an attempt to cover up”, lay it on me. Lemme see: she suffered a perimortem beating, the shot needed to be fired from her off hand (very unusual in suicides), lye (a corrosive base, not the reported acid, commonly used to open clogged drains) was found in her vagina (not a place one would put it, even if she were suicidal), lividity was found on her left side and burns on her right which says she was set on fire while she lay on the ground dead. Yep, sounds like suicide. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > We have some unusual circumstances, certainly, worthy of further examination. Further examination? That examination should’ve taken place in 2005 at the murder site and the autopsy, but the magical conclusion then was that, though those signs pointed at beating, murder, and two separate attempts to destroy evidence, and that there is a strong correlation between those and there having been a rape, too, Pfc Johnson killed herself. The available smilies fail me when I try to describe how high my eyes are rolling. > [@](#): > > How this jumps to a “no doubt” conclusion escapes me. That bird is walking, swimming, and quacking like a duck. In criminal court we have the “beyond reasonable doubt” test, and with the evidence released so far I’d say we were close to it. On a messageboard, as in civil court, the bar is lower and while I avoid absolutes the preponderance of evidence points to a coverup. > [@](#): > > Plus he’s being a jerk about it, but that’s a side issue. Very true, and it buys some sympathy from me. Sympathy doesn’t make you any less wrong, but I can understand why you persist. **Der Trihs** , you do your positions no good and much harm when you act like an asshole, as you almost always do. Dial back the evil and see if you can increase the number of people who agree with you. As it is now, you drive people away. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/85 "2008-07-03T17:18:23Z")
[QUOTE=Linty Fresh] First of all, it’s “bated breath.” [/QUOTE] bait: We NGOs wait with baited breath for the outcome of their deliberations. > **[Breath Definition & Meaning | YourDictionary](https://www.yourdictionary.com/breath)** > > Breath definition: Spirit or vitality. I found “bated breath” as well. I use “baited” and had never seen the other till now. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/86 "2008-07-03T18:40:12Z")
[QUOTE=dropzone] … As it is now, you drive people away. [/QUOTE] True, but he makes me look like a sensible, middle-of-the-road centrist. Has its uses, I must admit. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/87 "2008-07-03T20:00:06Z")
[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63] bait: We NGOs wait with baited breath for the outcome of their deliberations. > **[Breath Definition & Meaning | YourDictionary](https://www.yourdictionary.com/breath)** > > Breath definition: Spirit or vitality. I found “bated breath” as well. I use “baited” and had never seen the other till now. [/QUOTE] No, it’s totally “bated”. “Baited” is the misuse that’s become so common as to be “acceptable” these days, but it is not actually correct. If your breath were baited, it would smell even worse than usual. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/88 "2008-07-03T21:24:16Z")
[QUOTE=Cartooniverse] Will “us soldier types” be as quick to approve of prosecution and imprisonment of soldiers who raped and murdered this woman? [/quote] As a minor note, I should point out that though I claim myself as among “us soldier types”, I’m actually a Canadian Forces Reservist (for 19 years come November), if it matters. The oath (well, affirmation) I took was to obey the orders of the Queen and my superior officers. And, well… duh? _If_ Johnson was raped and murdered, I certainly support the maximum penalty under the relevant law (the UCMJ if the perpetrator or perpetrators were members of the U.S. military; I’m not offhand certain what applies if the perpetrator wasn’t but I’m assuming harsh penalties are involved). > [@](#): > > One would certainly hope so. And since one has stated the obvious, why not? Trouble is, so far one is assuming that which one wants to prove. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/89 "2008-07-06T19:55:43Z")
ETA: never mind. Three members of the military have said I’m wrong and that all anyone wants is for the perpetrator, be they civillian or military, to be prosecuted. I for one applaud their public stance and look forward to an eagerly public stance when and if the perpetrator is caught. And prosecuted. By a military court. After all, if one insists at the outset that they want to see full justice, one can but assume that at the end of the day, those same loud voices will be equally loud in their support of a conviction. Even if it’s death. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/90 "2008-07-06T20:00:39Z")
[QUOTE=Cartooniverse] Always good to hide behind a simple typo and not address the meat of a post till further down. Excellent… excellent. So now this vigorous insistence that the rapist/murderer be prosecuted to the absolute limit of the law has been thirded, we just need to sit back and await fair impartial transparent Military Justice, then see the three of you come back in here stating publicly what you’ve all firsted, seconded and thirded. [/QUOTE] Why wouldn’t I? The contempt dripping from every word is totally unwarranted and makes you out to be a douchebag of the highest order. But hey, why should you be any different? This thread is wall-to-wall with douchebags. I’ll be back. I’m sure you will to, with more contempt. Save it for someone who cares. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/91 "2008-07-06T20:01:47Z")
That should have read, " equally public stance ". Missed the edit time window. ETA: If you didn’t care, you wouldn’t have just posted. Please. You care so much - as well you ought to. You took an oath. A blood oath. So did the murderer IF indeed he/ they are in the military. Difference is, they didn’t obey their oath. Douchebags? Oh I see- use utterly foul language to describe people who don’t think the way you do, because they’re not as good as you are. Gee. Wonder how you refer to women when you’re not around your wife… ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/92 "2008-07-06T20:12:26Z")
[QUOTE=Cartooniverse] Douchebags? Oh I see- use utterly foul language to describe people who don’t think the way you do, because they’re not as good as you are. [/quote] No, I use such language to describe people like you that make the reprehensible leap of assuming that everybody in the military is contemptible. You and **Der Trihs** are peas in a pod. > [@](#): > > Gee. Wonder how you refer to women when you’re not around your wife… Ask your mom. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/93 "2008-07-06T20:17:54Z")
[QUOTE=Cartooniverse] You took an oath. A blood oath. So did the murderer IF indeed he/ they are in the military. Difference is, they didn’t obey their oath. [/quote] A _blood_ oath? Maybe times have changed, but in my day, we just raised our right hand. > [@](#): > > Douchebags? Oh I see- use utterly foul language to describe people who don’t think the way you do, because they’re not as good as you are. Well no, he’s not using foul language to describe people who don’t think the way he does. He uses it to describe people who suck. You know, like the guy whom everyone tells over and over and over and over again that they want to see a case investigated and justice done but then he keeps insinuating that they’re all for the coverup. I prefer the term dickhead, because actual douchebags are useful. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/94 "2008-07-06T20:22:56Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] You and **Der Trihs** are peas in a pod. [/QUOTE] Fred Phelps, **Cartooniverse** , and **Trihs**. That’s one fucked-up pod. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/95 "2008-07-06T20:23:47Z")
[QUOTE=Cartooniverse] Douchebags? Oh I see- use utterly foul language to describe people who don’t think the way you do, because they’re not as good as you are. Gee. Wonder how you refer to women when you’re not around your wife… [/QUOTE] Wow, that was really low. [QUOTE=Linty Fresh] I prefer the term dickhead, because actual douchebags are useful. [/QUOTE] Ahem. As a woman, let me assure you tht dickheads are, indeed, extremely useful. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/96 "2008-07-06T20:31:07Z")
You’re sliding into incoherence, 'Verse, so I’ll try to be especially clear. I don’t know that Johnson was raped or murdered. **If** she was then, yes, it is desirable that the perpetrator(s), if they can be identified, be prosecuted. I’m not saying this “loud”, because it’s so obvious a point that it doesn’t need emphasis. And if a court-martial ends with a death sentence… so be it. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/97 "2008-07-06T20:41:27Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] Ahem. As a woman, let me assure you tht dickheads are, indeed, extremely useful. 🙂 [/QUOTE] Man, women are _resourceful!!__Nothing’s_ useless! I’m gonna run out of insults at this rate. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/98 "2008-07-06T22:45:51Z")
[QUOTE=Cartooniverse] ETA: never mind. Three members of the military have said I’m wrong and that all anyone wants is for the perpetrator, be they civillian or military, to be prosecuted. I for one applaud their public stance and look forward to an eagerly public stance when and if the perpetrator is caught. And prosecuted. By a military court. After all, if one insists at the outset that they want to see full justice, one can but assume that at the end of the day, those same loud voices will be equally loud in their support of a conviction. Even if it’s death. [/QUOTE] Nobody’s saying that you’re wrong about what the evidence looks like; it looks exactly like a coverup from the outside looking in, based on what little we know. If and when the perpetrator(s) can be found and prosecuted, then that’s all one can hope for. But due process has to be served, in spite of damning evidence, even for murdering, raping sleazebags, even murdering raping sleazebags in the US military, so you can’t just assume that we know anything just yet. I will admit that what we do know in the face of a suicide proclamation by the US Army seems awfully incongruous. I feel most sorry for her parents, whom are likely facing the same type of stonewalling that Tillman’s parents did. My frustration with the military in instances like these is that they simply won’t admit to mistakes and the fact that their employees are fallible. They would come out looking so much better in the long run. I imagine this is some case of a field-grade officer protecting his career, although why a captain, major or LTC could be directly blamed for a rape/murder (unless he ordered it) and would have his career ruined by the criminal actions of an enlisted person (an assumption) is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/99 "2008-07-07T03:10:54Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] I don’t know that Johnson was raped or murdered. **If** she was then, yes, it is desirable that the perpetrator(s), if they can be identified, be prosecuted. I’m not saying this “loud”, because it’s so obvious a point that it doesn’t need emphasis. And if a court-martial ends with a death sentence… so be it. [/QUOTE] Check if I’m wrong, but that cannot happen if her death is ruled a suicide. The investigation is over, which was the original point of the rant. Maybe one of the legal types can answer this question: Even if they decide to reopen the investigation and say that it was a murder…isn’t the fact that it once ruled a suicide gonna go along way toward reasonable doubt? Is it _realistically_ possible to convict someone of murder if it was once ruled a suicide? ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785/100 "2008-07-07T10:58:46Z")
[QUOTE=spooje] Is it _realistically_ possible to convict someone of murder if it was once ruled a suicide? [/QUOTE] [Yes](http://archive.southcoasttoday.com/daily/01-96/01-07-96/a1wives.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-army-re-lavena-johnson/454785.md?page=6)