Fuck the Army (re: LaVena Johnson)

The BBQ Pit
61

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
I’m a little surprised I really need to explain this, but those are examples of crimes irrationally blamed on groups, with other groups accused of complicity. As I see it, the example you provide is not significantly different.
[/quote]
Except that the US military actually does engage in such coverups. And except that the US military actually exists. They aren’t similar at all.

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
Us soldier types will stand guard while you do.
[/QUOTE]
When you aren’t busy raping your own, torturing prisoners and bombing people who can’t defend themselves.

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I think we should all take a deep breath and wait until Representative Murtha tells us what he thinks happened.

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[QUOTE=Der Trihs]

When you aren’t busy raping your own, torturing prisoners and bombing people who can’t defend themselves.
[/QUOTE]

I was in agreement with you, but this is too far.

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[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
I said “no doubt” because Der Trihs said “no doubt”. And if there’s evidence she was raped, and more specifically that she was raped “by her comrades” and that subsequent actions demonstrate “no doubt it was an attempt to cover up”, lay it on me.

We have some unusual circumstances, certainly, worthy of further examination. How this jumps to a “no doubt” conclusion escapes me.
Plus he’s being a jerk about it, but that’s a side issue.
[/QUOTE]

Der Tris did say “no doubt,” but I interpreted your saying there was no evidence to mean that there was no evidence of a rape and cover up, not that there was no evidence that there was no doubt. Or something.

And in response to your request for evidence, the OP and the linked article certainly provide probable cause of a rape, murder, and cover-up. Enough for a search warrant in a civilian court, for sure. As whether it was her comrades who did it, that seems rather likely; I don’t think that enemies have access to our bases in Iraq and anyway if an enemy did it there would be no need for a cover up. IOW, the evidence of a cover-up is in itself evidence that her comrades did it.

And now that you say circumstances require further investigation, I’m not sure how you’re still defending the military here. They have stated categorically that the case is closed. They won’t discuss, they won’t reopen it. When there is sufficient evidence to warrant further investigation, and the military refuses, isn’t that evidence of a cover-up right there?

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[QUOTE=Fionn]
What evidence would you consider acceptable, a video? Audio tape of a coroner openly stating that he or she would leave evidence of physical trauma out of the official report so the military could claim it was just another soldier-beats-self-pours-acid-on-genitals-glues-gloves-to-hands-shoots-self-in-head
[/quote]

Well, that’d be an excellent start. I suppose sperm deposits would help, too. I see in one news report that father is seeking to have the body exhumed. If he succeeds, I’d like to see what a nonmilitary medical examiner says.

I’ve never stated it was impossible Johnson was raped and murdered by a fellow soldier, nor would I avoid admitting it once evidence was in. If she was raped and murdered and if another soldier or soldiers did it, I fully support them spending the rest of their lives in a military stockade.

Sorry to dampen the RO.

66

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
When you aren’t busy raping your own, torturing prisoners and bombing people who can’t defend themselves.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, that’s right. That’s what we do. There, there.

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[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley]
Der Tris did say “no doubt,” but I interpreted your saying there was no evidence to mean that there was no evidence of a rape and cover up, not that there was no evidence that there was no doubt. Or something.
[/quote]

As you wish.

Assuming the facts stated in the OP and the linked article are correct, of course.

Again, assuming reported facts are correct.

Possibly. I’m well short of the “no doubt” level, though.

68

[QUOTE=Fionn]
I was in agreement with you, but this is too far.
[/QUOTE]

And that’s the problem with Der Trihs right there. When you live in your own little world, it’s not too hard to point your finger at an entire group and hold them accountable for the actions of a few. It’s easy to call the entire military murderers and rapists and wish death on them when you’re living in your own little ivory tower. It’s easy just to sit back and dismiss every man, woman, and child who believes in a god as an idiot (Yes, he does this regularly.).

I mean, let’s face it: The world is shit. We can all get behind that one, right? It was shitty a millenium ago, it’s shit right now, and a couple of thousand years from now when we all have to move to condo’s on Io because we managed to blow the earth up, it’s going to be shit then. Frank Herbert said it best: The only two human constants are confusion and error. Thus it is written, thus it is foretold. Anyone can sit back in the comfort of his personal ideologically tidy fantasy world and pass judgement on the rest of us like Trihs does, because finding fault and bad judgement in the real world is about as difficult as finding crabs in a whorehouse.

Actually living in the real world and trying to improve it is a lot harder. It’s a lot harder to enlist in the army after 9/11 in the hopes that your president knows what he’s doing so that the real world–which, let’s not forget, is still mired in real world shit–can be a bit safer somewhere down the line. It’s hard to belong to a group in which some members consider themselves above the law enough to commit atrocities and then try to see justice done, or failing that, just live day to day and strive to be as good as you can. Actually living your life and coming face to face with its shortcomings and your faults is quite a bit harder. But as far as I’m concerned, if you want to do something with your life as opposed to just bitching about it, you really don’t have a choice.

For all his carping about religious people, Trihs makes the exact same mistake as the worst of the bible-thumping fundies: He takes his own little Disneyland, which is hopelessly disconnected from reality, and he tries to apply it to the real world, and when it doesn’t fit, he blames the world. We’re all evil, we’re all idiots, and we’re the ones ruining the world, because we don’t recognize the simple truth he’s putting forward. If we’d all just listen to him, it would work out. Hell, take what Trihs has said about the military in this thread, sprinkle a few tidbits about hell and God’s wrath, and you’ve got a WBC tract. And that’s about how much our little buddy here is in tune with reality. He and the Phelpses are two peas in a pod.

Think about that the next time he goes off on a tear.

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[QUOTE=Linty Fresh]
When you live in your own little world, it’s not too hard to point your finger at an entire group and hold them accountable for the actions of a few. It’s easy to call the entire military murderers and rapists and wish death on them when you’re living in your own little ivory tower.
[/quote]
And it’s even easier to pretend that it’s just a few people that are the problem.

[QUOTE=Linty Fresh]
It’s easy just to sit back and dismiss every man, woman, and child who believes in a god as an idiot (Yes, he does this regularly.).
[/quote]
I prefer ‘fool’ actually. And they are; religion is pretty much the silliest idea ever to exist.

[QUOTE=Linty Fresh]
Actually living in the real world and trying to improve it is a lot harder.
[/quote]
And it’s the religious and the military-wankers that are some of the biggest obstacles to both.

[QUOTE=Linty Fresh]
It’s a lot harder to enlist in the army after 9/11 in the hopes that your president knows what he’s doing so that the real world–which, let’s not forget, is still mired in real world shit–can be a bit safer somewhere down the line.
[/quote]
Except that’s not what our army is for; that’s not what it’s doing, or likely to do. We aren’t interested in safety, but in killing, exploitation and coercion.

[QUOTE=Linty Fresh]
He and the Phelpses are two peas in a pod.
[/QUOTE]
I knew you’d say something like that. It’s part of how atheists are held to a far higher standard; arguing with people on a message board is as bad as picketing people’s funerals, as long as the person on the message board is an atheist.

And, congratulations for helping Bryan Ekers in his attempt to steer the discussion away from rape in the military.

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[QUOTE=AudreyK]
I don’t see it as having become jaded, as I never held the military in very high esteem. We need our military, and everyone who serves is doing something I don’t want to do, but I don’t view it with the same awe and sparkle that I know many here do.

I respect those who serve, especially those who make lifetime commitments, and the unique sacrifices military families have to make. But to me, service is a choice, not a duty. I do not believe the lines that the military is out there fighting to preserve our freedoms or to bring democracy to other countries. Armed forces serve a country’s interests, and that is not always the same as being righteous and honorable.
[/QUOTE]

Well, you’re mostly right. The modern incarnation of the military is just as honorable as the previous one, it’s just that our politicians aren’t as careful about using us anymore, which I find strange because the world is a more dangerous place than it used to be.
I do believe that the military does fight for our freedoms, however they aren’t doing that in Iraq right now, aside from possibly occupying terrorist attention away from our homeland and onto our military, but they are doing that in Afghanistan, which should have been the main focal point of our efforts post 9/11 in the first damn place.
Democracy at the end of a gun doesn’t work, and neither does any other type of forced government, but in the long run, I do believe that Iraq will be a happier place for it’s people with self-governance than they were under Saddam Hussein.

I only view it as “awe and sparkle” because it is so deeply ingrained in me (the notion of service to country, the civilian-soldier) due to many generations of service, myself included, and also like you said…not everyone can face the perils that our military faces and live with the consequences, nor would they want to. I don’t fault anyone for that.

Where I do find fault is with people that smugly claim with some kind of preternatural knowledge, that they have everything all figured out, and when an atrocity happens, they paint with a very broad brush.

The military, our government, the world…is never so simple nor black and white. It never has been and it never will be.

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[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
And, congratulations for helping Bryan Ekers in his attempt to steer the discussion away from rape in the military.
[/QUOTE]

I’m doing no such thing. Rape does occur in the military. It may have occured in this case. My only attempt at “steerage” is away from bias spoken with confidence.

It’s very tempting to sink to your level and start accusing you of ridiculous things, too. As an example, I could probably pretzel-logic your statements into claiming you don’t want women in the military, or in any position of authority, because you hate them and want to see them reduced to pregnant slavery.

But that would be silly, no?

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[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
I knew you’d say something like that. It’s part of how atheists are held to a far higher standard; arguing with people on a message board is as bad as picketing people’s funerals, as long as the person on the message board is an atheist.

And, congratulations for helping Bryan Ekers in his attempt to steer the discussion away from rape in the military.
[/QUOTE]

Not that I actually want to get into the habit of replying to you, Trihs, but in this case I feel the need to point out a few things to you.

  1. In case you’ve forgotten, I’m an atheist too. I just don’t feel the need to be a dick about it.
  2. Whether or not what you say is actually worse than picketing a funeral (which I know you would never do, if for no other reason than you don’t have the guts), you’re still exhibiting the same logical dishonesty, and your reason for posting this is pretty much the same reason he pickets that.
  3. The person who steered the discussion away from rape was neither Bryan nor I. It was you, dipshit! When are you going to learn that when you go over the top and post how much you call an entire group of people murderers and rapists and wish they would die, other people are going to stop responding to you as just another poster? It’s a real shame that you had a fucked-up childhood and can’t relate to people but it’s Not. Our. Fault.
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[QUOTE=Linty Fresh]

  1. In case you’ve forgotten, I’m an atheist too. I just don’t feel the need to be a dick about it.
    [/quote]

I’m athier than both of you put together. But, yeah, not being a dick is important.

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[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
And it’s even easier to pretend that it’s just a few people that are the problem.

I prefer ‘fool’ actually. And they are; religion is pretty much the silliest idea ever to exist.

And it’s the religious and the military-wankers that are some of the biggest obstacles to both.

Except that’s not what our army is for; that’s not what it’s doing, or likely to do. We aren’t interested in safety, but in killing, exploitation and coercion.

I knew you’d say something like that. It’s part of how atheists are held to a far higher standard; arguing with people on a message board is as bad as picketing people’s funerals, as long as the person on the message board is an atheist.

And, congratulations for helping Bryan Ekers in his attempt to steer the discussion away from rape in the military.
[/QUOTE]

I’ll be your huckleberry. Rape exists and so does murder. Are you going to try to pretend that it exists in greater scale within the armed forces than without?

You’ll need to cite that whopper.

I was in the Army for five years, I never knew anyone that raped anyone, and I was one of about 250,000 employees. Did it happen? Sure, I would bet that it did. I never raped anyone. I never killed anyone that wasn’t trying to kill me.
You see, that’s generally how it works…kill them before they kill you (because they are going to try!), take that hill, move forward private, etc.

My grandfather, my Dad and both my uncles were USMA grads and served a minimum of 25 years each as career officers. They are and were all good men that cared about their own, minimizing civilain casualties (you do know that we’re pretty much the only country that does that, right? You know, TRY to avoid “collateral damage”? Other nations simply do not care. It’s part of the reason why we have developed precision munitions!). They also put up with an enormous amount of shit in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. I fought in the first Persian Gulf War, and I’m proud of it even though I absolutely hated it. I endured, and so did my fellow troops. We stuck together, we made sure the rules were followed, we didn’t commit any atrocities…there’s actually rules to war, you know. Look it up, they are there. ALMOST everyone in the military obeys the rules of engagement, because there are in fact (gasp!) consequences if you do not.

As far as rape goes, my take on it is that it happens, needs to be rooted out and exposed wherever it may be, and any and all perpetrators punished to the fullest extent of the UCMJ, as well as any higher ups that looked the other way or participated in a coverup of said rape.

Believe me, I am angry about this case because all indications point to a coverup, but I’m at least willing to be rational enough to afford the process to take it’s course, you know, just like if this exact same act had occurred in the civilian realm. As it should be.

I fear I am wasting my breath so I will stop now.

Good day.
This looks like another in a series of black eyes for the Pentagon, based on what we know right now. But let’s not just assume the worst just because coverups have happened before, OK? Every situation is unique.

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As a female soldier currently on course with men I can say without a doubt that I do not carry a knife to protect myself, nor do I feel myself in imminent danger of being raped. Please don’t paint all military men with the same brush, I serve with these guys and feel a need to stick up for them.

ETA - I am sorry for the pain that LaVena Johnson obviously suffered and hope the truth comes out.

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[QUOTE=Poysyn]
As a female soldier currently on course with men I can say without a doubt that I do not carry a knife to protect myself, nor do I feel myself in imminent danger of being raped. Please don’t paint all military men with the same brush, I serve with these guys and feel a need to stick up for them.

ETA - I am sorry for the pain that LaVena Johnson obviously suffered and hope the truth comes out.
[/QUOTE]

Keep your head down out there, troop.

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[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
Keep your head down out there, troop.
[/QUOTE]

What he said. Take care of yourself, Poysyn.

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The thing that bugs me about this is the open questions. Maybe there’s a report somewhere which explains how she shot herself with a rifle, left a blood trail, poured acid on herself, set herself on fire after she was dead, etc. but if there is, why isn’t it being mentioned? If there isn’t, then why the hell isn’t there? And why can’t the relatives get the body back to do an independent autopsy? Is there something about military service which stipulates your body is theirs to dispose of in the event of your death? Even if the family wants it back?

I’m not in a position to say what did or did not happen, but when there are lots of reasonable questions and a lack of reasonable answers, that’s where I start thinking “coverup.”

Enjoy,
Steven

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[QUOTE=Mtgman]
I’m not in a position to say what did or did not happen, but when there are lots of reasonable questions and a lack of reasonable answers, that’s where I start thinking “coverup.”

Enjoy,
Steven
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, something strikes me as wrong here, too. Even allowing for the fact that we have to wait for the actual evidence, I think something happened and someone is trying to cover his own ass. It very well might have been how it was described in the petition.

Let’s hope the petition and the emails to congress do the job.

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[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
Us soldier types will stand guard while you do.
[/QUOTE]

Will “us soldier types” be as quick to approve of prosecution and imprisonment of soldiers who raped and murdered this woman?

One would certainly hope so. Since this story isn’t going anywhere, we all await your even-handed support of the military judicial system with baited breath.

Because, you know, that oath you took? The one about defending the country? There’s women in this country.

They deserve to be defended too. Even against you soldier types.

:rolleyes: