# Fuck the 'Blame America First' assholes **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 13, 2001, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-blame-america-first-assholes/81218 "2001-09-13T01:02:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-blame-america-first-assholes/81218/41 "2001-09-14T01:05:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saint Zero \* > Nice try. Were you not trying to tell us that it’s our fault? Now you’re backing up and claiming the government isn’t “At fault” for this cataclysm. So which is it? Do you have the guts to go ahead and say “You deserve it” which is what you so painfully are trying to avoid? \*\* Of course I’m avoiding saying so, because I don’t believe it. You are inferring it from where it is not implied. I meant exactly what I said in my posts. Simmer down. I brought up the examples of the United States’ misfeasance not to somehow show that it deserved fifty thousand civilian deaths, but to give some possible idea of what could have driven someone to commit such an atrocious act upon American soil. The two are not the same thing. If you spit on me, and I murder your entire family as a result, you can trace the cause of my reaction without forgiving or condoning it (quite the opposite, in fact). _Tout comprendre n’est pas tout pardonner._ > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Nutty Bunny_ > \*\*I just don’t buy the touchy-feely bullshit about “innocent citizens”. They didn’t care about ours. That does not license us to trample civilians rough-shod. At this point, a military response appears certain; civilians will die in this. However, the horror of the assault absolutely cannot absolve the US from observing international law and the decency of war, which includes refraining from the unnecessary killing of civilians. I am withholding my judgment about a future war until one becomes concrete. However, I will not condone a course of action that is based upon vengeance and bloodlust, nor one that is not conducted with _jus in bello._ ---
**Author:** ![Tokiwoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/898d66/32.png) [@Tokiwoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tokiwoki)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-blame-america-first-assholes/81218/42 "2001-09-14T03:38:17Z")
I just wanted to get a piece of the ‘FUCK YOU’ pie. I hope anybody blaming America for the tragedy gets what is coming to them. ---
**Author:** ![Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/soul_brother_number_two/32/3515_2.png) [@Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soul_Brother_Number_Two)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-blame-america-first-assholes/81218/43 "2001-09-14T06:00:02Z")
i pretty much agree with matt on this one. note to readers: i certainly dont feel that the innocents in the wtc deserved to die. ive done a lot of crying and praying. america can never be the same. i do feel, however, that these attacks in some way represent our chickens coming home to roost. america has condoned, supported, and perpetrated acts of terrorism across the world, for years. vietnam, central america, and iraq come to mind, just to name a few. i cant remember the name of the town in vietnam, the place where thousands died, the place that some military man said of, ‘we had to destroy it to save it.’ how many innocents have died and are dying every day in iraq because of what we’ve done? how many terrorists has the cia trained besides bin laden himself? i know that this is a very unpopular view, but three billion dollars in aid, both dollars and weapons, go to israel every year. israel, over the years, has done some devious things, has sold some of those arms to countries america considers our enemies. to say that the usa and israel havent played a role in this is dangerously naive, to my mind. there has been an attitude that mainland america is invincible and impenetrable. we’re just like the rest of the world, now. cuautemhoc says that he or she wants to understand how the people in egypt and nablus could feel the way they do. i want to know, as well. what have we done to make these people hate us so? its not just their leaders, its not just what they read in the koran. we have to examine our part of this unspeakable horror. i saw thich naht hanh speak today. his words of peace, compassion, and reconciliation moved me deeply. in closing, this email message had a lot of resonance for me today. im sure many of you have seen it; for those who haven’t, i’ll post it now. love and may god bless us. The Courage to Be Human: A Path to Transformation by Angel Kyodo Williams New York City – September 11-12, 2001 The devastation of this day is staggering beyond measure. We have all heard the radio, watched the television with our mouths gaping in disbelief, our hearts wrenching in despair. We have heard talk of resolve and determination. Plans for justice and retaliation. Unanswerable questions being asked and unimaginable events being lived. The fact is that as a culture and as a people, we are not equipped emotionally, psychically and spiritually to manage the magnitude of this tragedy in our minds. We have, mercifully, lived for so long under the dark shroud of ignorance to the scope of our vulnerability. I want to encourage you all, first and foremost, to be still. To listen to your heartbeat. To be silent. To breathe. If you listen deeply, it is the voice of sanity and compassion that you will find there. It is the voice that will remind you of your connection with all beings. Yes, you are connected with the untold hundreds, possible thousands of unknowing people that lost their lives instantly in the World Trade Center and Pentagon crashes. You are connected with the undoubtedly horrified passengers and crew of the airplanes turned into weapons of mass destruction. You are connected with the brave rescue workers, firemen, police officers that willingly ran into flaming buildings as others poured out, only to have two of the world’s largest structures of steel, glass and concrete fall in on them along with the countless victims trying desperately to escape. You are connected to the mothers, the fathers, the sisters, nephews and cousins of all those people. To their teachers, their coworkers, their friends and their lovers that must carry an unthinkable burden forth. And you are also connected with the men or women that, with frightening calculation, walked onto the planes of four major airlines, knowing that they would pilot their own deaths and take the lives of innocent people on their journey. We cannot close our eyes or our hearts to not one of those people. We cannot close our minds to the unbearable truth of the consequences of our actions. Of creating, perpetuating and sitting on the sidelines of a culture that passes off violence as a reasonable tool to achieve peace. Of doling out so-called justice only to those who are not in our favor. Those who do not say the right things, have the right color, were not born into the right caste, worship the right gods and live the right lives. Our unbalanced sense of justice is increasingly available on behalf of only those who can afford it or offer enough benefit in exchange. Most of us sat idly by, comfortable that our distance made us safe. Now how many additional lives do we need to see taken to make us feel truly secure? What punishment will feel like it is enough? It is tempting to find oneself taking aim at a nameable group and pulling the trigger of anger. Which is why now, more than any other moment in our history, we must make the most courageous effort, take the hardest step towards living in an altogether different way. If we are lulled into seeing the people that have committed this desperate act and the people that will surely pay with their lives in any act of retaliation as separate, different, Others that are not a reflection of the darkest parts of our own selves, we will lose this crucial opportunity. We will lose the window to a realization of ourselves as more compassionate, more thoughtful, more fully connected with the events of our world, and thus more responsible. This bears repeating: if we continue to refuse to take personal responsibility for the cause and conditions: for the oppression, the inequity, the sheer unnatural imbalance of our existence, we will never witness an end to this. So I implore you to not allow your inexpressible confusion, sorrow, helplessness and fear to numb you into turning over your agency. Do not let your desire for a new illusion of personal safety, of “freedom” to give license to further violence. Our military may be “powerful and prepared” but are we? Are we prepared to, with fierce determination, with the strength bestowed by personal realization, insist that we will no longer let violence be perpetuated in our names, in the name of justice, and most cruelly, in the name of peace? We must band ourselves and our hearts together to put an end to the cycle of violence that we now know we are not immune from. We must put an end to the wars being waged against our humanity and become warriors for the common cause of peace. We are desperate to have the answers to every question, to always know what to do and how to respond. It is obvious that there is so much that we don’t, but what we do know is that the way it has been done is not working. You have permission to turn off your TVs and radios and simply feel your pain. You have permission to not know. It is easy to see ourselves as good and well-wishing when the fabric of our very being is not called into question. But can we be open and honest about who we really are, about the evil acts we are capable of conceiving while staring in the face of our own remarkable frailty? And can we use that to change? We need to find peace in our own hearts first. Many people find their ways to spiritual paths, to personal paths of transformation when the ground they always knew to be there falls out from underneath them. The ground has fallen out beneath us America. Let us all find the wisdom to see this unspeakable tragedy as a doorway to meaningful change, as a precursor to collective transformation. If we do not accept this challenge, if we are not brave and unrelenting in our demand, but instead cower behind the “quiet, unyielding” and clearly insatiable, emotion of anger, the loss of thousands of lives will not be merely unspeakable, they will be in vain. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-blame-america-first-assholes/81218/44 "2001-09-14T08:19:23Z")
Well, it’s good to know I’m not completely alone around here. Hey matt… thanks for speaking. And essvee, thanks for posting that. stoid ---
**Author:** ![Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/soul_brother_number_two/32/3515_2.png) [@Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soul_Brother_Number_Two)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-blame-america-first-assholes/81218/45 "2001-09-14T14:21:24Z")
thanks yourself, stoid. there are more than a few of us americans that believe bombing the hell out of afghanistan, pakistan, and iraq isnt necessarily the right thing to do. it does seem, however, that we’re in the minority. my mother-in-law sent that email message to members of her family and was basically disowned… ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-blame-america-first-assholes/81218/46 "2001-09-14T14:57:06Z")
**matt\_mcl** - I think the issue is that, as we all agree, the US has enemies. I think we could also all agree that the US, by virtue of its position, cannot avoid having enemies, even when we are not in the wrong. Therefore, it is not clear that the latest attack on the US is _in any sense_ understandable or as a result of some wrongdoing by the US. It could (and IMO) _is_ simply the result of Islamic fundamentalists who hate the US because it is not run by Islamic fundamentalists. We could be the most nearly perfect nation in the history of the planet, and still suffer the same kind of attack. bin Ladin, if he is indeed responsible for the murder of the thousands in New York and Washington, hates the US because we set foot in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War. A person who reacts to such an action by slaughtering thousands **because they are innocent** cannot be appeased by changes in US policy. They cannot be persuaded. Any change in our policy will be followed by demands for further changes, designed to create another country run by the the Taliban. People like this are not susceptible to reason. They will **always** find a reason to kill. Therefore, they have to die. If we had killed bin Ladin in 1993, we might have saved 4000 lives. So far. Terrorists attack the innocent. That is why we call them terrorists. Occasionally, in striking against the guilty, the US has harmed the innocent. This does not make us terrorists, who act in exactly the opposite way. The US, in the Gulf War, went to extraordinary lengths to minimize the “collateral damage” that has been an unavoidable part of war since time began. It wasn’t enough, and bin Ladin is not striking against the US (if he is guilty) because of any violations of human rights. He is doing it (if guilty) for reasons that lie outside the normal human experience. He is doing it because he is a terrorist. The people who died, did so because they were innocent, and for no other reason. Statements about how the US could avoid this by changes in policy are missing the point. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Beaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Grim\_Beaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Beaker)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-blame-america-first-assholes/81218/47 "2001-09-14T15:01:20Z")
Let me paraphrase the contents of the e-mail emvee posted in the form of an analogy. “If a loose woman get’s raped we need to understand the context of the situation and open our hearts and forgive the raper” Fuck that. ---
**Author:** ![Rossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@Rossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rossarian)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2001, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-blame-america-first-assholes/81218/48 "2001-09-15T01:31:07Z")
One of the problems I have with this whole “explaining the other side’s reasons” thing is that these people complain others see only one side, which is exactly what they are doing. Has Israel done things wrong. Definitely. They’ve been making bad policy choices far too frequently. But they have also spent the first few months of Sharon’s term showing remarkable restraint, and seeing no results from it. If we are supposed to understand why people hate the US because of support of Israel’s actions, then why don’t we look at how Israel got to where it is today? Pick up a book on the Six Day War and read some of the quotes coming from Israel’s opponents in the days prior to the commencement of hostilities. This wasn’t uneducated people in the streets. This was leaders of countries calling for the extermination of Israel. Don’t you think that affects your outlook on the world? Don’t you think that they do the things they do today because they cannot escape from decades of siege mentality? The Israelis do what they do today because of what Arabs did to them yesterday. Arabs do what they did yesterday because of what Israelis did the day before. Israelis do what they did the day before… Get the picture? The people who did this will not stop. They cannot accept that the past is gone and that they need to focus on the present. Telling them about “cycles of violence” or “their past wrongs” or “jesus loves you” or whatever will not change their minds. We must work with the normal people. The lunatic fringe, we must fight. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2001, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-blame-america-first-assholes/81218/49 "2001-09-15T03:25:40Z")
[http://www.michaelmoore.com/2001\_0912.html](http://www.michaelmoore.com/2001_0912.html) > [@](#): > > In just 8 months, Bush gets the whole world back to hating us again. He withdraws from the Kyoto agreement, walks us out of the Durban conference on racism, insists on restarting the arms race — you name it, and Baby Bush has blown it all. > \ > Many families have been devastated tonight. This just is not right. They did not deserve to die. If someone did this to get back at Bush, then they did so by killing thousands of people who DID NOT VOTE for him! Boston, New York, DC, and the planes’ destination of California — these were places that voted AGAINST Bush! Is Moore saying it wouldn’t be as bad if Republicans died? Or is this some incredibly sick joke? Or is he just fucking stupid? I’ve felt he was an annoying jerk, but he has finally revealed himself as a completely despicable person. Weather Underground radical-turned-memoirist Bill Ayers, in the [Sept. 11 New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/11/books/11AYER.html?searchpv=nytToday) (free registration required), Page B1: > [@](#): > > I don’t regret setting bombs. I feel we didn’t do enough. I hope he feels better now. (Yes, the Times article was written and printed before the attack. And your point is…?) John Lahr, drama critic for the NY Times, on [Slate.com](http://slate.msn.com/code/breakfast/breakfast.asp?Show=9/11/2001&idMessage=8272&idBio=288): > [@](#): > > Perhaps it’s eerie serendipity, perhaps it’s my paranoia, but an acid thought keeps plaguing me. Isn’t it odd that on the day–the DAY–that the Democrats launched their most blistering attack on “the absolute lunacy” of Bush’s unproven missile-defense system, which “threatens to pull the trigger on the arms race,” what Sen. Biden calls today in the Guardian, his “theological” belief in “rogue nations,” that the rogue nation should suddenly become such a terrifying reality. The fact that I could even think such a thought says more to me about the bankruptcy and moral exhaustion of our leaders even in the face of a disaster where any action, in the current nightmare, will seem like heroism. But I do smell destabilizing violence in the wings. In fear, the nation, to my mind, has always proved mean-spirited and violent. Is he really hinting that Bush had some part in the attack? How do people like this sleep at night? ---
**Author:** ![snac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90db22/32.png) [@snac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snac)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2001, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-blame-america-first-assholes/81218/50 "2001-09-15T04:21:06Z")
I am very far from being a fan of Mr. Shrub jr., but I’d submit that Mr. Lahr’s quote “The fact that I could even think such a thought says more to me about the bankruptcy and moral exhaustion of our leaders” was actually recorded erroneously, and what he _actually_ said was “The fact that I could even think such a thought says more to me about the bankruptcy and moral exhaustion of John Lahr” Which, of course, it does. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-blame-america-first-assholes/81218/51 "2001-09-18T22:28:11Z")
michael moore [now complains](http://www.michaelmoore.com/2001_0917.html): > [@](#): > > As [the Wall Street Journal] is a publication whose editorial department has no moral compass, I shouldn’t be surprised that they would appropriate my words and twist them to fit their own conclusions. I thought I’d write them a letter about this, and then I went, Ah, jeez, do I have to explain satire to these people? My secong guess was right: it was an incredibly sick joke. Interestingly, the second half of the quote I gave previously is no longer on the page I linked to. He complains his words were taken out of context, but has removed them so we can’t see what the context is! He uses his camera to expose things he thinks are wrong, then hides his own wrongs. What an utterly despicable jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Nutty\_Bunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d07c76/32.png) [@Nutty\_Bunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nutty_Bunny)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-blame-america-first-assholes/81218/52 "2001-09-20T14:13:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Nutty Bunny_ > > I just don’t buy the touchy-feely bullshit about “innocent citizens”. They didn’t care about ours. > > That does not license us to trample civilians rough-shod. At this point, a military response appears certain; civilians will die in this. However, the horror of the assault absolutely cannot absolve the US from observing international law and the decency of war, which includes refraining from the unnecessary killing of civilians.\*\* matt, My nerves and emotions were very raw at the time I posted this. I agree that we shouldn’t kill innocent civilians over this. We can’t stoop to their level. I also agree that civilians will die in this. How do we know who the terrorists really are? Many of them are in this country, too. I apologize for my knee-jerk reaction, but I was led by rage to say what I did and I feel really bad about it now. I don’t want anyone to think that I’m an unthinking, unfeeling, and unsympathetic person. What I said was a misrepresentation of what I really felt, so I took a few days to cool off. Hopefully, our government will do the same. I still think there needs to be some retaliation, but will it be effective or will it just piss them off and make them even more dangerous? I try to live by the wisdom of Dragonblink. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Carpenter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Mr\_Carpenter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Carpenter)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-blame-america-first-assholes/81218/53 "2001-09-21T03:30:59Z")
Raid and BlackFlag might work better on this opponent then using expensive equipment and lots and lots of troops. They say the troops don’t know the Afghan terrain…Well then what are they doing there, and why did we pay lots of money on the satelite systems??? ---
**Author:** ![\_somewhat\_damaged](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/ccd318/32.png) [@\_somewhat\_damaged](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_somewhat_damaged)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-blame-america-first-assholes/81218/54 "2001-09-21T04:45:56Z")
Nothing, ever, excuses the murder of innocents, nothing. Some say we deserve this because of the U.S. government’s support of Isreal. So what? We’ve pumped hundreds of millions of dollars into Afghanitan over the years. We supported them during their war with Russia. We assisted Iraq in their war with Iran. We supported them until Hussein bombed northern Iraq with mustard gas to kill Kurdish Muslims. Every country has fanatics. Isreal has the Kach Party, Palestinians have Hammas. America has the KKK, Aryan Nation, and assorted other groups who are subversive to the government. The problem isn’t politics. The problem is people. As long as there are people on this planet there will be some who are greedy, violent, cruel, and evil. There will, sadly, be some who think crashing an airplane with passangers into a packed building is a glorious death. There will be some who think strapping themselves with explosives and detinating themselves in a crowded street is honorable. There will be some who will load a vehicle with explosives, park it near a building, walk away, blow it up and think it’s for the betterment of the country. I believe that most people are good a heart…but, slowly I’m becoming disillusioned. Take care of eachother people. We have a long, hard road ahead of us. _somewhat~damaged_ ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-blame-america-first-assholes/81218/55 "2001-09-21T12:48:57Z")
…I think you will like it. Linkie newbie, hope it works. [http://slate.msn.com/framegame/entries/01-09-19\_115869.asp](http://slate.msn.com/framegame/entries/01-09-19_115869.asp) In case it doesn’t. Consequentialist reasoning on this terrorist attack (meaning we brought this on ourselves through whatever), though seemingly empowering, actually is analagous to being a rat in an experiment. If we do one thing we get fed, another we get shocked. Yes if we do the thing to get fed it feels like we are in control, but really the “scientists”–here the terrorists–select the options we choose from… Or, put simply, appeasement is not “choosing” to do anything. Put more simply, do we want to be Osama Bin Laden’s bitch? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-blame-america-first-assholes/81218.md?page=2)