# Fuck the Conservatives! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-conservatives/492011 "2009-04-04T23:42:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-conservatives/492011/1 "2009-04-04T23:42:02Z")
[ > [@](#): > > It has been nearly six years since Abousfian Abdelrazik, a Sudanese Canadian, was jailed while visiting his ailing mother in Khartoum. It has been nearly four years since he was released for the second time by Sudanese authorities after suffering torture but without having been charged. Yet, Mr. Abdelrazik is unable to return home, and has spent the past 11 months living in the lobby of the Canadian embassy. > > Initially considered a terror threat by the Bush administration, Mr. Abdelrazik was made the object of a travel ban and placed on a United Nations Security Council watch list. More recently, however, on being released from a Sudanese prison, Mr. Abdelrazik was given a letter stating that it was “never possible” for him to be a member of al-Qaeda and that he does not “bear any threat to any international interests.” Indeed, both the Canadian Security Intelligence Service and the RCMP have formally advised the Canadian government there is no reason to believe that Mr. Abdelrazik is a terrorist. ]([http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090402.wcoabdelrazik03/BNStory/specialComment/home](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090402.wcoabdelrazik03/BNStory/specialComment/home))What the fuck happened to this[ > [@](#): > > 1. (1) Every citizen of Canada has the right to enter, remain in and leave Canada. ]([http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/#circulation](http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/#circulation))I say Fuck the Conservatives! Fuck them up their stupid, fucking asses! This is how they fucking defend Canada? By preventing Canadians from fucking returning!!? You bigoted, racist fucks need to get you heads out of your damn asses! You bend over backwards to pay for a [friggin convicted criminal to be shipped back to Canada](http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080422/martin_decision_080423?s_name=&no_ads=) in a private jet; but not allow this man to return?!! For what? The “bigot vote” and more shameless Kafkaesque bullshit! FUCK YOU ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-conservatives/492011/2 "2009-04-04T23:59:56Z")
I thought that by law, they can’t let him fly home while he’s on the UN travel ban list, and that, in spite of Canada’s request to remove him, he’s still on the travel ban list. From here: [http://www.un.org/sc/committees/1267/consolidatedlist.htm](http://www.un.org/sc/committees/1267/consolidatedlist.htm) > [@](#): > > QI.A.220.06. Name: 1: ABU SUFIAN 2: AL-SALAMABI 3: MUHAMMED AHMED 4: ABD AL-RAZZIQ > Title: na Designation: na DOB: 6 Aug. 1962 POB: a) Al-Bawgah, Sudan b) Albaouga, Sudan Good quality a.k.a.: a) Abu Sufian Abd Al Razeq b) Abousofian Abdelrazek c) Abousofian Salman Abdelrazik d) Abousofian Abdelrazik e) Abousofiane Abdelrazik f) Sofian Abdelrazik g) Abou El Layth h) Aboulail i) Abu Juiriah j) Abu Sufian k) Abulail l) Djolaiba the Sudanese m) Jolaiba n) Ould El Sayeigh Low quality a.k.a.: na Nationality: a) Canadian b) Sudanese Passport no.: Canadian passport number BC166787 National identification no.: na Address: na Listed on: 31 Jul. 2006 Other information: na So you should be pitting the UN. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-conservatives/492011/3 "2009-04-05T00:11:42Z")
If he can’t fly, can’t they put him on a boat? Or is that against the rules, too? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-conservatives/492011/4 "2009-04-05T00:17:09Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > If he can’t fly, can’t they put him on a boat? > > Or is that against the rules, too? From the list (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > The Security Council Committee established pursuant to paragraph 6 of resolution 1267 (1999) concerning Al-Qaida and the Taliban and associated individuals and entities (hereafter referred to as the “Al-Qaida and Taliban Sanctions Committee”) oversees the implementation by States of the three sanctions measures (assets freeze, travel ban and arms embargo) imposed by the Security Council on individuals and entities associated with the Taliban, Usama Bin Laden and the Al-Qaida organization. The Committee maintains a Consolidated List of individuals and entities subject to the sanctions measures. By resolutions 1267 (1999), 1333 (2000), 1390 (2002), as reiterated in resolutions 1455 (2003), 1526 (2004), 1617 (2005), 1735 (2006) and 1822 (2008), the Security Council has obliged all States to: > > - freeze without delay the funds and other financial assets or economic resources, including funds derived from property owned or controlled directly or indirectly > > **- prevent the entry into or the transit through their territories** > > - prevent the direct or indirect supply, sale, or transfer of arms and related material, including military and paramilitary equipment, technical advice, assistance or training related to military activities, with regard to the individuals, groups, undertakings and entities placed on the Consolidated List. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-conservatives/492011/5 "2009-04-05T00:18:50Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I thought that by law, they can’t let him fly home while he’s on the UN travel ban list, and that, in spite of Canada’s request to remove him, he’s still on the travel ban list. > > From here: > > [http://www.un.org/sc/committees/1267/consolidatedlist.htm](http://www.un.org/sc/committees/1267/consolidatedlist.htm) > > So you should be pitting the UN. If you read [this story](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090403.wabdel0403/BNStory/International/home)you will find that… > [@](#): > > Although the blacklist imposes a travel ban, it includes a specific exemption for citizens to return home. and that > [@](#): > > In a one-sentence letter, delivered this morning to Mr. Abdelrazik’s lawyers, the justice department said “the minister of foreign affairs has decided to refuse your client’s request for an emergency passport.” because of > [@](#): > > In a terse explanation, it said Foreign Minister Lawrence Cannon considers Mr. Abdelrazik a national security threat. why do they believe this? > [@](#): > > Mr. Abdelrazik was added to the list in 2006 by the Bush administration which is strange because > [@](#): > > the Harper government previously tried – but failed – to get him delisted. Mr. Abdelrazik, a Canadian, has been cleared of any terrorist or criminal involvement by both the RCMP and CSIS, who wrote to the foreign minister confirming their findings. but > [@](#): > > He remains on the UN blacklist and a separate U.S. “no-fly” list. to which Harper’s government replied > [@](#): > > “It’s up to him, its incumbent on him to make sure he gets off that list,” Mr. Cannon said, referring to the UN Security Council terrorist blacklist. and why is he on that list in the first place? > [@](#): > > Government documents, marked secret, implicate Canadian security agencies in the original arrest of Mr. Abdelrazik in 2003. and guess what the fuck happened to him when he went to Sudan to visit and bury his mother? They arrested him and put him > [@](#): > > In prison, he says, he was beaten and tortured. He was also interrogated by a visiting team of CSIS agents and by U.S. counter-terrorism agents. all because > [@](#): > > “All this happened to me because the Harper government says I am an Islamic extremist. This is a lie. I am a Muslim and I pray to my God but this does not make me a terrorist or a criminal,” Mr. Abdelrazik said. and when he was released from this hellish Sudani jail > [@](#): > > “For six years I have tried to go back home to my children, but the Canadian government took my old passport and will not give me another one,” but finally after five years > [@](#): > > the government’s written promise of three months ago to issue Mr. Abdelrazik an emergency passport if he had a paid-for ticket home. but in the last minute they > [@](#): > > cited Section 10.1 of the Canada Passport Order which says “the minister may refuse or revoke a passport if the minister is of the option that such action is necessary for the national security of Canada or another country.” They are LYING FUCKS! This has dick all to do with the fucking UN. This is all Harper’s doing! FUCK EM! ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-conservatives/492011/6 "2009-04-05T00:19:48Z")
[quote=“Todderbob, post:3, topic:492011”] If he can’t fly, can’t they put him on a boat? …QUOTE] Sssshhh! Now you’ve gone and told the terrorists how to beat our travel restrictions! Damn you!! ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-conservatives/492011/7 "2009-04-05T00:23:46Z")
They will fucking pay for a convicted female white Canadian to be flown in first class from Mexico, but not allow this man to return!? Go to fucking hell Harper! ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-conservatives/492011/8 "2009-04-05T00:25:59Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I thought that by law, they can’t let him fly home while he’s on the UN travel ban list I’m quite certain that the UN can say whatever it likes, but it can’t override the Charter. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-conservatives/492011/9 "2009-04-05T04:04:03Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > I’m quite certain that the UN can say whatever it likes, but it can’t override the Charter. > [@](#): > > The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it **subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.** If he’s a national security threat, as the Foreign Minister says, then restricting his movement back into Canada is a reasonable limit prescribed by law. So now the CSIS and the Horsemen say he’s not a terrorist, so that’s fine, and it should be easy for him to get off the list, then. But it’s his responsibility to do so. So let him get off the list, and that’ll clear up any problems, and then he won’t have any problems going home. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-conservatives/492011/10 "2009-04-05T04:50:44Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > If he’s a national security threat, as the Foreign Minister says, then restricting his movement back into Canada is a reasonable limit prescribed by law. So now the CSIS and the Horsemen say he’s not a terrorist, so that’s fine, and it should be easy for him to get off the list, then. But it’s his responsibility to do so. So let him get off the list, and that’ll clear up any problems, and then he won’t have any problems going home. Keeping in mind he’s trapped in an embassy, lest he faces more brutal torture, how do you propose he go about getting off the list? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-conservatives/492011/11 "2009-04-05T07:14:48Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > They are LYING FUCKS! This has dick all to do with the fucking UN. This is all Harper’s doing! FUCK EM! All Harper’s doing? You do realize that the Conservatives have only been in power since 2006? A lot of the things you are bitching about seem to have happened when the Liberals were in power including when this fellow was first accused, arrested and tortured? It even seems that the Canadian government, under their watch, were the ones doing the accussing. The worst the Conservatives seem to have done is not grant him a passport and allow him to crash in the Embassy lobby. Or is this just an excuse to slag the Conservatives and you’re using this fellow’s plight to do so? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-conservatives/492011/12 "2009-04-05T07:33:46Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > If he’s a national security threat, as the Foreign Minister says, then restricting his movement back into Canada is a reasonable limit prescribed by law. So now the CSIS and the Horsemen say he’s not a terrorist, so that’s fine, and it should be easy for him to get off the list, then. But it’s his responsibility to do so. So let him get off the list, and that’ll clear up any problems, and then he won’t have any problems going home. So the government puts the man on a list on which he should never have been. And now it is the man’s responsibility to get himself off the list? After having been mistakenly incarcerated and tortured (oops, sorry 'bout that) now it is his burden to take whatever bureaucratic steps are needed to get himself off the list? While he is in an embassy which he cannot leave due to this BS? Kafka would be proud. My only observation is that I cannot see how this has anything to do with being a conservative. This has to do with basic human decency and understanding the basic concepts of human rights and human dignity. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-conservatives/492011/13 "2009-04-05T12:33:36Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > If he’s a national security threat, as the Foreign Minister says, then restricting his movement back into Canada is a reasonable limit prescribed by law. There is nothing and no one outside of the FM who is calling this man a threat. So why are they calling him a threat? because he is on a blacklist. Why is he on a blacklist? because Canada told everyone he’s a terrorist. What proof did they have? NO FUCKIN CLUE. So what’s he’s accused of? Nothing. What’s he charged with? Nothing. Why is he a threat? No reason. Why can’t he come home? Because of the FM personally says he can’t. Why is this? Because he’s a threat. Why is he a threat? Because he’s on a list… A trial that didn’t happen, with proof that doesn’t exist, from accusers who are nameless, and a prosecuting state that is indifferent to truth or justice. > [@](#): > > So now the CSIS and the Horsemen say he’s not a terrorist, so that’s fine, and it should be easy for him to get off the list, then. How on earth did you come to this conclusion? The Canadian government has both tried and failed to get him off of this list? How does a broke man sleeping in a cot in Khartoum get himself off a blacklist. One that doesn’t even prevent him from returning home? > [@](#): > > But it’s his responsibility to do so. Well, until he does this impossible feat, shouldn’t we get him home? Or is this on hold until he finishes our arbitrary commissioned task. > [@](#): > > So let him get off the list, and that’ll clear up any problems, and then he won’t have any problems going home. Did you not read the news stories? There are **no problems** with him going home. It was the FM who personally forbade him from returning. No UN blacklist is keeping him from returning home. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-conservatives/492011/14 "2009-04-05T12:59:57Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > All Harper’s doing? You do realize that the Conservatives have only been in power since 2006? A lot of the things you are bitching about seem to have happened when the Liberals were in power including when this fellow was first accused, arrested and tortured? It even seems that the Canadian government, under their watch, were the ones doing the accussing. The worst the Conservatives seem to have done is not grant him a passport and allow him to crash in the Embassy lobby. Or is this just an excuse to slag the Conservatives and you’re using this fellow’s plight to do so? Hey man if you want to slag the Liberals for putting this guy in this mess, then I’m with you 100% But don’t forget that it’s the current Harper government who is carrying this mess into bizarre Kafkaesque heights. After the RCMP and CSIS (also the Sudanese government) clear this man they continue to bat him around like a cat with a ball of yarn. As Chris Selley of the National Post said: [ > [@](#): > > In case it actually needs to be said, the government knowing or suspecting something about a Canadian citizen isn’t enough to essentially exile him. Ottawa’s incredibly churlish behaviour on this file—endlessly setting conditions, then arbitrarily changing them when they’re met—brings the very foundations of government and citizenship into disrepute. It has to stop. The least Cannon could do is offer to repatriate Abdelrazik under some kind of monitoring conditions, as has been proposed with Khadr. Abdelrazik would be well within his rights to refuse such an arrangement on principle—i.e., the principle that, for heaven’s sake, he hasn’t done anything wrong—and I’m certainly not saying I support it. I support letting him come home, full stop. But at least it would get him back to Canada, and at least it would suggest Cannon was motivated by something other than pure bloody-mindedness. ]([http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/04/04/chris-selley-quot-the-trial-quot-by-lawrence-cannon.aspx](http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/04/04/chris-selley-quot-the-trial-quot-by-lawrence-cannon.aspx)) ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-conservatives/492011/15 "2009-04-05T15:06:03Z")
This sounds more like a bureaucratic clusterfuck than conservative malevolence. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-conservatives/492011/16 "2009-04-05T15:59:53Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > If he’s a national security threat, as the Foreign Minister says, then restricting his movement back into Canada is a reasonable limit prescribed by law. So now the CSIS and the Horsemen say he’s not a terrorist, so that’s fine, and it should be easy for him to get off the list, then. But it’s his responsibility to do so. So let him get off the list, and that’ll clear up any problems, and then he won’t have any problems going home. This is sickening. How the hell has Canada fallen so far that guilty until proven innocent is deemed acceptable? It’s his job to prove that he’s not a terrorist? The government can strip him of his rights just by putting him on a _list_? No trial, no evidence, just put him on a list and they can ban a citizen from his own country forever? That constitutes a reasonable abrogation of rights in a free and democratic society? If the person is a Muslim, apparently so. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-conservatives/492011/17 "2009-04-06T04:12:01Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Hey man if you want to slag the Liberals for putting this guy in this mess, then I’m with you 100% But don’t forget that it’s the current Harper government who is carrying this mess into bizarre Kafkaesque heights. I’m not forgetting this, but the OP seems to be. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-conservatives/492011/18 "2009-04-06T13:23:10Z")
Well, on the bright side, at least he’ll only have to wait 16 years for the [movie deal](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehran_Karimi_Nasseri). ---
**Author:** ![detop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@detop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/detop)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-conservatives/492011/19 "2009-04-06T13:34:47Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I’m not forgetting this, but the OP seems to be. **orcenio** IS the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-conservatives/492011/20 "2009-04-06T14:07:20Z")
> [@detop](#): > > **orcenio** IS the OP. D’oh!