# Fuck the fucking cowards in the Senate **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 25, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330 "2013-01-25T16:27:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/61 "2013-01-25T22:29:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Until we get a less crazy Republican caucus on the house, why the heck does anything other than confirmations matter… A succinct way of putting the point I tried to make. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/62 "2013-01-25T23:33:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In other words, when the Democrats were last in the minority, THEY used it “way more than at any other time in history.” [Wrong again, worm-brain](http://assets.thefiscaltimes.com/TFT2_20101228/App_Data/MediaFiles/3/2/4/%7B32460E0F-8033-4BB9-AC50-4E29BEE8DBC1%7Dfilibuster%20chart.jpg?w=587&h=549&as=1). As seen on [this graph](http://assets.thefiscaltimes.com/TFT2_20101228/App_Data/MediaFiles/3/2/4/%7B32460E0F-8033-4BB9-AC50-4E29BEE8DBC1%7Dfilibuster%20chart.jpg?w=587&h=549&as=1), cloture motions stayed about the same when the Democrats lost the Senate in 1981, and rose only slightly when they lost it in 1995. The very big jumps in the graph are colored red. If one understands that appointments and laws the GOP objects to are largely centrist, while the Democrats filibustered idiotic appointments and brain-damaged policies, the filibuster picture disparity seems even more egregious. But we don’t expect you to be capable of judging policy, **Brickhead** – just see if you can fnd someone to help explain this simple graph. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/63 "2013-01-25T23:55:18Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > rose only slightly when they lost it in 1995 If by only slightly you mean rising about 50% (from on the average about 45 in “red” 80s-90s to the average of about 70 in “blue” nineties-oughts) then you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/64 "2013-01-26T02:07:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If by only slightly you mean rising about 50% (from on the average about 45 in “red” 80s-90s to the average of about 70 in “blue” nineties-oughts) then you’re right. The difference between the red 93–94 and the blue 95–96 is clearly nowhere near 50%. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/65 "2013-01-26T03:26:27Z")
> [@waterj2](#): > > The difference between the red 93–94 and the blue 95–96 is clearly nowhere near 50%. Average the red before and blue after. Tell me that is just a “slight” increase. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/66 "2013-01-26T03:45:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …or, in an alternative version of history for Lobohan: > > …Yes, the Democrats are too fucking stupid to use the rules to their advantage. . . - or too nice - or too sane - or too adult - or too patriotic - or too responsible One or all of those. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/67 "2013-01-26T04:26:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Average the red before and blue after. Tell me that is just a “slight” increase. Well, sure, you can play with the numbers to avoid talking about the huge jump in cloture motions that the Republicans made from the 91–92 session to the 93–94 session, but they did indeed make that jump, and that was the baseline that the Democrats seem to have kept in mind for the next several sessions. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/68 "2013-01-26T04:35:10Z")
> [@waterj2](#): > > Well, sure, you can play with the numbers to avoid talking about the huge jump in cloture motions that the Republicans made from the 91–92 session to the 93–94 session, but they did indeed make that jump, and that was the baseline that the Democrats seem to have kept in mind for the next several sessions. Ah I see. So once Republicans set the “baseline” (which is, of course, horrible, awful, utterly unethical, immoral and despicable), Democrats can do the same, but when they do it, it’s necessary and justified. Correct? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/69 "2013-01-26T04:50:19Z")
The main problem with the charts being posted about the number of filibusters is that they aren’t actually counting filibusters. They’re counting how many times the Majority Leader tried to end a filibuster. It’s like trying to measure how many headaches I’ve had in a month by counting how many Advil I’ve taken. I can have a headache and not take an Advil. Arguing about precise numbers of filibusters by counting the Advil is an exercise in precision with no assurance of accuracy. But I tend to agree with the propositions that things are totally out of control with filibusters; that Democrats will probably filibuster more things they they’re in the minority with a Republican president; and the only way to fix it is to have a rules change that goes into effect in 2016 or 2018 when there’s no way to predict which party will be in power. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/70 "2013-01-26T04:51:16Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah I see. So once Republicans set the “baseline” (which is, of course, horrible, awful, utterly unethical, immoral and despicable), Democrats can do the same, but when they do it, it’s necessary and justified. Correct? I’m just saying that the history shows that the Republicans were the ones that have been responsible for the big jumps, and the Democrats have followed. That’s just what has happened. I haven’t said anything about whether any particular level of filibustering is necessary or justified. Just trying to accurately describe the history. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/71 "2013-01-26T04:55:22Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > and the only way to fix it is to have a rules change that goes into effect in 2016 or 2018 when there’s no way to predict which party will be in power. That would be a blatant, naked hypocrisy, wouldn’t it be? I mean, give the politicians _some_ credit - when they are being hypocritical, at least they are a little more subtle about it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/72 "2013-01-26T13:49:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That would be a blatant, naked hypocrisy, wouldn’t it be? I mean, give the politicians _some_ credit - when they are being hypocritical, at least they are a little more subtle about it. The hypocrisy is already blatant. Everyone who was for the nuclear option in 2005 is now against it, and vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/73 "2013-01-26T14:04:23Z")
I agree with those who would not eliminate the use of the filibuster, but who would reduce the number somewhat, say to 55/45 and would force the filibustering side to demonstrate they have the 45 votes (on the floor, ready to vote at any time) to ‘sustain’ the filibuster, rather than forcing the other side to ‘overcome’ the filibuster with 56 votes. What’s not to like about that? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/74 "2013-01-26T14:07:31Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What, you think there’s an infinite number of bills dealt with in any session? The number of _non_-filibustered bills is pretty close to zero - this last Congress set a new record by a long shot for fewest bills actually passed, _in history_. The system is \*already \*saturated. Hardly anything worse can happen. Lots of worse things can happen. Most of those bills that got filibustered could have been passed. If Congress passed no laws this session with the exception of continuing appropriations bills I would be perfectly content with that. It is rare indeed that I am satisfied with a law that they pass. Gridlock? Fine with me. I’m all about it, no matter who’s in charge. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/75 "2013-01-26T14:56:35Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Lots of worse things can happen. Most of those bills that got filibustered could have been passed. > > If Congress passed no laws this session with the exception of continuing appropriations bills I would be perfectly content with that. It is rare indeed that I am satisfied with a law that they pass. Gridlock? Fine with me. I’m all about it, no matter who’s in charge. +1. QFT. All that. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/76 "2013-01-26T15:00:01Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Lots of worse things can happen. Most of those bills that got filibustered could have been passed. > > If Congress passed no laws this session with the exception of continuing appropriations bills I would be perfectly content with that. It is rare indeed that I am satisfied with a law that they pass. Gridlock? Fine with me. I’m all about it, no matter who’s in charge. That’s a profoundly stupid position. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/77 "2013-01-26T15:43:33Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > That’s a profoundly stupid position. Reminds me of Garth Algar: “We fear change.” “It’s like a new pair of underpants. At first it’s constricting, but then it becomes a part of you.” ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/78 "2013-01-26T16:56:05Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > That’s a profoundly stupid position. Only if you assume that things need to be changed, that addressing the problem won’t cause as many problems as the ones that were addressed, or that the changes that are made are even desirable. As I said, it is rare indeed that all of those conditions are satisfied, even less so when any one party is completely in control of the process. Surely you would object to the Republicans having carte blanche to create and pass legislation in whatever manner they choose. As always, it’s a question of whose ox is being gored. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/79 "2013-01-26T17:17:41Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > As always, it’s a question of whose ox is being gored. Why do people always bring that up? Bush won, Al sold his TV station to the terrorists, let it drop. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/80 "2013-01-26T18:38:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah I see. So once Republicans set the “baseline” (which is, of course, horrible, awful, utterly unethical, immoral and despicable), Democrats can do the same, but when they do it, it’s necessary and justified. Correct? Just to be clear here, is your position that if in fact the situation were as some claim, where it was clear that the Republicans kept escalating the level of filibuster use, while the Democrats merely followed suit; that in that situation, both sides would be morally equivalent? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330.md?page=5)