# Fuck the fucking cowards in the Senate **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 25, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330 "2013-01-25T16:27:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/81 "2013-01-26T18:43:32Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Just to be clear here, is your position that if in fact the situation were as some claim, where it was clear that the Republicans kept escalating the level of filibuster use, while the Democrats merely followed suit; that in that situation, both sides would be morally equivalent? Once the Democrats followed suit, definitely. “But he did it too” doesn’t work for five-year-olds, it shouldn’t work for adults either. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/82 "2013-01-26T21:38:19Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Most of those bills that got filibustered could have been passed. Short of the “nuclear option”, how? Or is that what you’re thinking of? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/83 "2013-01-26T21:44:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Once the Democrats followed suit, definitely. “But he did it too” doesn’t work for five-year-olds, it shouldn’t work for adults either. I think it’s more complicated than that. The situation in the Senate for years and years was that there were a set of laws governing how things were run, and then also a set of gentleman’s agreements about how those laws would actually be used. If an agreement of that sort is broken, then it’s broken, and it no longer applies, and neither side is bound by it. But it was still one side that initially broke it, and that side bears more responsibility for the ensuing situation (in this case, arguably, total gridlock) than the other side. There’s no law saying that politicians can’t run campaign ads negatively targeting members of their opponents’ families, but it’s a custom. If one side starts doing it regularly, then it is clearly no longer a custom, but standard practice. Then both sides will be doing it, but one side still bears the moral responsibility for the situation. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/84 "2013-01-26T21:53:50Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Only if you assume that things need to be changed, that addressing the problem won’t cause as many problems as the ones that were addressed, or that the changes that are made are even desirable. Even aside from that way of looking at the issue, there’s the question of democracy. If the will of the people, as expressed through an election, is that X should happen, well, then X should happen\*. If there’s an election in 6 or 8 years where clearly the touchstone issue of the election is whether to legalize gambling, and the wants-to-legalize-gambling party wins the presidency and decisive, but not filibuster-proof, majorities in both houses of congress, then I believe that it would be contrary to the spirit of the American system of governance for 40 out of 100 Senators to just utterly and immovably refuse to allow gambling to be legalized. Think about it this way… some day there’s going to be an issue that’s really important to you, and a clear majority of Americans will agree with you over a long enough time frame, and with enough passion, to elect a majority of the government which agrees with you on that issue. Do you want that duly elected government to actually be able to do the thing you want, or not? As for your general philosophy of gridlock being good, I think there are plenty of examples throughout history of the government doing things that came out well. Think of whoever your favorite 20th century US president was. Did that president, and his administration and the congress, do things? \*Obviously I’m oversimplifying, and there’s a reason that constitutional amendments take so much more than just 51% of the populace, and why there are protected classes and constitutional tests yada yada yada. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/85 "2013-01-26T21:58:11Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Short of the “nuclear option”, how? Or is that what you’re thinking of? If they hadn’t been filibustered they would have been passed, thus the filibuster, and thus why I think that it would have been worse. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/86 "2013-01-26T23:32:43Z")
That wasn’t even coherent. You seem to be saying that it’s the Democrats’ fault that the Republicans filibustered virtually everything. If you mean all those bills would have passed otherwise, well, duh, that’s the fucking _point_. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/87 "2013-01-27T00:31:04Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > and then also a set of gentleman’s agreements about how those laws would actually be used. “Gentleman’s agreements” require gentlemen. Since in order to be elected to the Senate one has to be an utter scoundrel to begin with, there are no such creatures there. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/88 "2013-01-27T02:57:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That wasn’t even coherent. You seem to be saying that it’s the Democrats’ fault that the Republicans filibustered virtually everything. If you mean all those bills would have passed otherwise, well, duh, that’s the fucking _point_. That _is_ the point. I’m glad you’re getting it now. I don’t want anything to pass. I stated that right up front. That you couldn’t read what is written in black and white in post 74 isn’t my problem. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/89 "2013-01-27T03:00:18Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > That _is_ the point. I’m glad you’re getting it now. I don’t want anything to pass. I stated that right up front. That you couldn’t read what is written in black and white in post 74 isn’t my problem. I think the problem is that the position is what you’d expect a dim child to have, and you’re certainly not stupid. So it seems like you must mean something else. You’re a victim to your ideology. It’s making you advocate drivel. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/90 "2013-01-27T03:06:41Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I think the problem is that the position is what you’d expect a dim child to have, and you’re certainly not stupid. > > So it seems like you must mean something else. You’re a victim to your ideology. It’s making you advocate drivel. What ideology is that, exactly? You guys always like to try to pigeonhole me and you never, ever get it right. I’m curious what you think. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/91 "2013-01-27T03:32:50Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > What ideology is that, exactly? You guys always like to try to pigeonhole me and you never, ever get it right. I’m curious what you think. I’d have to assume you have an ideological desire for “small government” since you don’t want the government to do anything. I’d also assume that you’re ideologically consumed by the concept that nothing Democrats want to pass could possibly be a good idea. Whatever you think, it’s forcing you to advocate irrational nonsense. And that can’t be good. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/92 "2013-01-27T03:49:41Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I’d have to assume you have an ideological desire for “small government” since you don’t want the government to do anything. I don’t object to the idea that government has a role in our lives, and I think that “small government” as it usually means is a fantasy. That said, the less the Congress does the better, because they usually screw it up. After 9/11 they had a golden opportunity to get some things through with bipartisan support, and sure enough they did: the PATRIOT Act. And that is approximately the last bipartisan thing they’ve done. Imagine, then, why I’m not too keen on anything else. > [@](#): > > I’d also assume that you’re ideologically consumed by the concept that nothing Democrats want to pass could possibly be a good idea. Nothing any of them do could possibly be a good idea. > [@](#): > > Whatever you think, it’s forcing you to advocate irrational nonsense. And that can’t be good. What I want and what actually happens are two different things. I want a million dollars and a pony. Will I get them? No. So now you get to tell me how cataclysmically stupid I am for wishing for something I can never have. Won’t stop me from wishing for it, any more than it stops people from wishing for gun control or abortion bans or any of the other things that they can’t have. So, to sum up, I enjoy gridlock. Most of what they manage to force through is fortunately diluted to the point that it draws comments such that it was pointless to pass it to begin with. I like that. If nobody “wins”, we all win, rather than just “liberals” or “conservatives”. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/93 "2013-01-27T04:03:45Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > What ideology is that, exactly? You guys always like to try to pigeonhole me and you never, ever get it right. I’m curious what you think. Based on what **Lobohan** said, and your response, I’d say he has you nailed. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/94 "2013-01-27T04:11:41Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > I don’t object to the idea that government has a role in our lives, and I think that “small government” as it usually means is a fantasy. That said, the less the Congress does the better, because they usually screw it up. After 9/11 they had a golden opportunity to get some things through with bipartisan support, and sure enough they did: the PATRIOT Act. And that is approximately the last bipartisan thing they’ve done. Imagine, then, why I’m not too keen on anything else. If you don’t want things done, you must think this is the best possible world. Utterly ignorant. > [@](#): > > Nothing any of them do could possibly be a good idea. That’s the response of an angry child. Not an adult opinion. > [@](#): > > What I want and what actually happens are two different things. I want a million dollars and a pony. Will I get them? No. Work hard, and it could happen. > [@](#): > > So now you get to tell me how cataclysmically stupid I am for wishing for something I can never have. Won’t stop me from wishing for it, any more than it stops people from wishing for gun control or abortion bans or any of the other things that they can’t have. You aren’t stupid for wishing for things you can’t have. You’re acting stupid because you wish for the necessary work of government to be stopped because you have a vapid and childish ideology that’s based on ignorant anger. > [@](#): > > So, to sum up, I enjoy gridlock. Most of what they manage to force through is fortunately diluted to the point that it draws comments such that it was pointless to pass it to begin with. I like that. If nobody “wins”, we all win, rather than just “liberals” or “conservatives”. It’s a bad thing to be genuinely stupid. You’re ever worse, because you \*choose \*to act stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/95 "2013-01-27T04:14:18Z")
Whatever you say. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/96 "2013-01-27T04:57:46Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Whatever you say. I know you aren’t philosophically a Tea Partier, but intellectually you’re acting like one. The idea that the government doing nothing is better than the government doing anything is something only that only a stupid person would say. I can name ten difficult problems right off the top of my head where doing nothing simply isn’t an option. One example: in order for us to have next generation wireless thingies that will come about in the next 10-15 years, the government will need to reallocate and auction off spectrum. If that doesn’t happen, new wireless gadgets won’t be sold here, and you’ll bitch and moan in ten years about how everyone else in the world gets to have the Android Mindreader or the iPhone 15 or whatever, but Americans don’t; and then you’ll blame the government. There’s lots more issues like this that simply need to be dealt with or shit doesn’t move forward. My guess is that either you’ve got your panties in a twist about government lately because you are a dyed in the wool gun nut, or you’ve been getting stupider. Am I in the ballpark here? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/97 "2013-01-27T08:18:02Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I know you aren’t philosophically a Tea Partier, but intellectually you’re acting like one. The idea that the government doing nothing is better than the government doing anything is something only that only a stupid person would say… > My guess is that either you’ve got your panties in a twist about government lately because you are a dyed in the wool gun nut, or you’ve been getting stupider. Am I in the ballpark here? > [@Ravenman](#): > > Join Date: Jan 2003 😕 You’ve been here this long and still attempt to fight ignorance on Airman’s scale? :rolleyes: I offer no response to **Airman Doors, USAF** except to ask him to save middleman’s effort and post his “thoughts” directly to the _Stupid Republican ideas_ thread. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Location: Barackington, DC Oh I see. You’re one of the crypto-Islamo-Marxists who worship our Kenyan Emperor. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/98 "2013-01-27T18:16:16Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “Gentleman’s agreements” require gentlemen. Since in order to be elected to the Senate one has to be an utter scoundrel to begin with, there are no such creatures there. And yet the system worked just fine for decades until suddenly 61 votes were required to pass ANYTHING. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/99 "2013-01-27T23:43:39Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That wasn’t even coherent. You seem to be saying that it’s the Democrats’ fault that the Republicans filibustered virtually everything. It is. Look, if you give your kid a slice of cake everytime they ask, who’s responsible for them being fat? Since Ried allows the procedural filibuster everytime the Pubs ask for one, the Pubs would be stupid to NOT “filibuster” whenever they have 41 votes. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330/100 "2013-01-28T15:44:29Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > After all that whining, complaining, finger-pointing and brave words about changing things, the filibuster continues on virtually unmolested. Fuck you Harry Reid, you fucking coward, and all the rest of you whiners. Don’t expect sympathy in the next four years when Republicans continue to derail legislation. I hate to tell you this, but it ain’t the Republicans doing it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-fucking-cowards-in-the-senate/648330.md?page=6)