# fuck the gloved one **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 26, 2009, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008 "2009-06-26T00:39:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008/141 "2009-06-27T00:56:38Z")
There are very few individuals whom I absolutely despise, but Michael Jackson is one of them. I’ve never liked him, I’ve never liked his “music,” but I didn’t feel it right to shit in the “Michael Jackson death” thread. I knew a thread such as this would appear shortly. It was the wee hours of the morning here when he died, and when I heard the news upon waking, I just knew that it couldn’t help but herald a good day. I regret he did not die in prison where he belonged, preferably while being poled up the ass by Rocko, his cellmate and shower buddy. Poor Farrah Fawcett suffered for years, while Michael just dropped; wish it had been reversed. ---
**Author:** ![SuntanTigerTamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@SuntanTigerTamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanTigerTamer)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008/142 "2009-06-27T01:11:27Z")
> **[Trial of Michael Jackson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Jackson)** > > People v. Jackson (full title: 1133603: The People of the State of California v. Michael Joe Jackson) was a 2005 criminal trial held in Santa Barbara County Superior Court in Santa Maria, California. The American pop singer Michael Jackson was charged with molesting Gavin Arvizo, who was 13 years old at the time of the alleged abuse, at his Neverland Ranch estate in Los Olivos, California. > Jackson had previously been accused of child sexual abuse in 1993; he denied the allegations and settled... None of this is very compelling. The motivations of the witnesses were all very suspect. Like I said, I wouldn’t be surprised, per se, if indisputable evidence came out that painted him as a pedophile. But I don’t think it’s fair to just assume that he was because he was charged or paid to make the charges go away. That payment wasn’t an admission of guilt, no matter what you say. The admission would have to come from him, not you. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008/143 "2009-06-27T01:13:54Z")
The admission did come from him…in the form of 20 million bucks. I don’t believe for a second that an innocent person would pay that much tp someone accusing them of something that damaging. Plus, he knew what Michael’s cock looked like. ETA, that link of yours goes to the 2nd case, by the way. That wasn’t the kid he paid off. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008/144 "2009-06-27T01:17:30Z")
The “proof” is circumstantial. But it is an impressive pile . I think he was weird and his attention to kids was kinda sick. Did he do more? I think so, but we do not have proof. Usually I believe the proof has to be overwhelming. Each incident is short of that. The whole body of evidence though, is just too much to ignore . I believe he is guilty of abusing children. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008/145 "2009-06-27T01:21:21Z")
> [@lisacurl](#): > > if you want to be a turd about Michael Jackson’s passing, this is the way to do it: > > [http://gawker.com/5302732/perez-hilton-growing-more-vile-by-the-second](http://gawker.com/5302732/perez-hilton-growing-more-vile-by-the-second) I may regret asking this, but who the fuck is perez hilton? ---
**Author:** ![SuntanTigerTamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@SuntanTigerTamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanTigerTamer)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008/146 "2009-06-27T01:38:41Z")
> **[Child sexual abuse accusations against Michael Jackson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_child_sexual_abuse_accusations_against_Michael_Jackson)** > > In 1993, Evan Chandler, a dentist and screenwriter based in Los Angeles, accused the American singer Michael Jackson of sexually abusing Chandler's 13-year-old son, Jordan. Jackson had befriended Jordan after renting a vehicle from Jordan's stepfather. Though Evan Chandler initially encouraged the friendship, he later confronted his ex-wife, who had custody of Jordan, with suspicions that the relationship was inappropriate. > Chandler wanted to resolve the issue with a financial settlement, but... This must be the case you’re talking about then. From the article: “In an emotional state, Jackson stood on a platform in the middle of the room, took off all his clothes and was examined for approximately 25 minutes, although he was never physically touched.[5] The search report concluded that there were some strong similarities between Chandler’s description and Jackson’s body, but there wasn’t a definite match.[5]” “neither the police nor the Grand Jury pressed criminal charges, citing a lack of evidence, Jackson was not charged with a crime” ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008/147 "2009-06-27T01:48:18Z")
I think you guys are missing a couple things: He’s black! (Even though he didn’t look like it) I’m white, I would fight any accusation like that as\*\* Dio\*\* said, but if you’re black, get out that checkbook! Michael Jackson has never made a decision on his own. He ate whatever food people told him too. Quincy Jones wrote the good songs. Do you really think he was the one that said, “Let’s just give them some money”? Michael didn’t understand the world OR the laws we pass. On 60 Minutes, he really didn’t get what was wrong with sharing a bed with a child who wasn’t yours. He would ask why. People would tell him, it doesn’t matter why, it’s the law. He would still say, “Why? Why? Tell them that it’s human nature!” 😃 This guy was forbidden to have a childhood by a bible-thumping brow-beating dad. He was forced to be an adult since about age five. I think this is the reason he had giraffes and Ferris wheels in his backyard, not to attract kids, but to BE one. (Let’s remember what we’ve said on other boards about Jesus freaks. I still say teaching a kid about the bible is the worst form of child abuse.) I think he really wanted to just be a kid and to do that he had to have kids near him, since he had no idea how to really be one. He envied them. As far as all the abuse goes, yes, he shared a bed, yes, he was naked in the shower in the same bathroom (that’s how the kid saw his dongle), and yes, I think it’s possible he stayed awake longer just to see a nocturnal erection from his little bed mate, but I don’t see it possible that he ever wanted intercourse with them. Shit, being a JW with an evil dad behind it, Michael probably thought he’d be beaten by his dad AND his god if he looked at his own penis! (with high voice) “I never saw my penis when I was twelve. Can I see your 12-year-old penis? Whoo hooo!” ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008/148 "2009-06-27T01:53:36Z")
> [@SuntanTigerTamer](#): > > [1993 Michael Jackson sexual abuse allegations - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_child_sexual_abuse_accusations_against_Michael_Jackson) > > This must be the case you’re talking about then. > > From the article: > > “In an emotional state, Jackson stood on a platform in the middle of the room, took off all his clothes and was examined for approximately 25 minutes, although he was never physically touched.[5] The search report concluded that there were some strong similarities between Chandler’s description and Jackson’s body, but there wasn’t a definite match.[5]” > > “neither the police nor the Grand Jury pressed criminal charges, citing a lack of evidence, Jackson was not charged with a crime” How hard is it really to describe his penis? Let me try: Hmmm… it was thin, small, and a pale grey color. So were his testicles. Believable? Kid could describe something he saw in gym class on another black kid in the locker room. No, I’m not Macaulay Culkin. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008/149 "2009-06-27T01:56:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He was guilty too. Payement is an admission of guilt, just like I said. Dio, I’ve agreed with your opinion on things in the past, I think we both kinda think in the same ways sometimes. But I don’t agree with this. If someone accused me of some heinous crime and I had oodles odf money, I might just pay the settlement to get them to leave me the hell alone. I remember when Elvis died. I’d been told that he had said something like “A nigger can only do one thing for me…shine my shoes.”. For years I hated Elvis for that. Then I watched a few documentaries and watched interviews with some people that knew him (some of them were black) who said that wasn’t true. They said that Elvis was actually very nice guy and not a racist. I didn’t know Elvis…but I’m willing to say that I was probably wrong and that he was an icon and great performer. I’m not going to hold a rumor that I can’t prove against him. Now, I’m not saying that MJ is innocent. Honestly, i don’t know. I suspect that in the future all kinds of crazy ass shit may come spilling out of the closet. But MJ was a superstar, whether you liked his music or not. And to be honest, I think he was nuts. I think that the people around him failed him spectacularly. If he did diddle these kids (and you know, while he was found innocent, he probably did) someone in his family or inner circle had to know. He had some self image problems and none of these people helped him. Also, as you said earlier, _who would let their kids sleep with a 40+ year old man_? The parents of some of these kids were just as wrong. What I don’t get is people on TV saying things like “Michael was my life” and all. Geez…I’m a big Kate Bush Fan but if she kicked it tonight I’d be sad and probably spend all night listening to her music, but its not like I’d think I lost my best friend. In college (for me, the mid to late 1980s) there was a guy that dressed like MJ everyday. Seriously. I could never stop laughing at him. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008/150 "2009-06-27T02:06:50Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > I think you guys are missing a couple things: He’s black! (Even though he didn’t look like it) I’m white, I would fight any accusation like that as\*\* Dio\*\* said, but if you’re black, get out that checkbook! > > Michael Jackson has never made a decision on his own. He ate whatever food people told him too. Quincy Jones wrote the good songs. Do you really think he was the one that said, “Let’s just give them some money”? Michael didn’t understand the world OR the laws we pass. On 60 Minutes, he really didn’t get what was wrong with sharing a bed with a child who wasn’t yours. He would ask why. People would tell him, it doesn’t matter why, it’s the law. He would still say, “Why? Why? Tell them that it’s human nature!” 😃 > > This guy was forbidden to have a childhood by a bible-thumping brow-beating dad. He was forced to be an adult since about age five. I think this is the reason he had giraffes and Ferris wheels in his backyard, not to attract kids, but to BE one. (Let’s remember what we’ve said on other boards about Jesus freaks. I still say teaching a kid about the bible is the worst form of child abuse.) > > I think he really wanted to just be a kid and to do that he had to have kids near him, since he had no idea how to really be one. He envied them. > > As far as all the abuse goes, yes, he shared a bed, yes, he was naked in the shower in the same bathroom (that’s how the kid saw his dongle), and yes, I think it’s possible he stayed awake longer just to see a nocturnal erection from his little bed mate, but I don’t see it possible that he ever wanted intercourse with them. > > Shit, being a JW with an evil dad behind it, Michael probably thought he’d be beaten by his dad AND his god if he looked at his own penis! (with high voice) “I never saw my penis when I was twelve. Can I see your 12-year-old penis? Whoo hooo!” You accept the pop psychology analysis of his character with practically no evidence. But, you reject a bunch of circumstantial evidence that shows he was involved in unhealthy relationships with kids. Forget his dad. MJ is responsible for what he did. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008/151 "2009-06-27T02:19:02Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > You accept the pop psychology analysis of his character with practically no evidence. But, you reject a bunch of circumstantial evidence that shows he was involved in unhealthy relationships with kids. Forget his dad. MJ is responsible for what he did. Okay, what did he do? The circumstantial evidence leads to he’s circumstantially a pedophile? Or does it lead to a Peter-Pan complex? Since there’s nothing definitive either way, all it tells us is he MAY have been a pedophile (or pederast) or he MAY have had a complex. You can’t leave out his dad’s role either. It’s evidence for your side and for mine. Pedophiles frequently have parental issues, so do arsonists, rapists, molestors… and regressive behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008/152 "2009-06-27T02:24:31Z")
I’ll also point out that offstage, this guy was scared of butterflies. A 10-year-old kid could kick him in the leg and Michael would cancel 10 shows, see eight specialists and have a special wheelchair built for himself which he can’t afford for a bruise on the shin. Again, abuse he got and he may have touched or felt or looked at these kids’ privates, but I don’t think he raped any of them. I don’t think he’s 100% not guilty, but for what he was charged, yes, I think he’s innocent. His own erection probably scared him into prayer. Where’s Macaulay when you need him? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008/153 "2009-06-27T02:25:37Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Okay, what did he do? The circumstantial evidence leads to he’s circumstantially a pedophile? Or does it lead to a Peter-Pan complex? Since there’s nothing definitive either way, all it tells us is he MAY have been a pedophile (or pederast) or he MAY have had a complex. > > You can’t leave out his dad’s role either. It’s evidence for your side and for mine. Pedophiles frequently have parental issues, so do arsonists, rapists, molestors… and regressive behavior. So. Would you put his dad in jail for MJs actions. His dad took a ride on the Jackson 5 gravytrain. His dad did not sleep with kids. ---
**Author:** ![SuntanTigerTamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@SuntanTigerTamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanTigerTamer)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008/154 "2009-06-27T02:27:55Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Okay, what did he do? The circumstantial evidence leads to he’s circumstantially a pedophile? Or does it lead to a Peter-Pan complex? Since there’s nothing definitive either way, all it tells us is he MAY have been a pedophile (or pederast) or he MAY have had a complex. > > You can’t leave out his dad’s role either. It’s evidence for your side and for mine. Pedophiles frequently have parental issues, so do arsonists, rapists, molestors… and regressive behavior. Besides, I don’t think anyone here is saying “MJ was NOT a pedophile” but Dio has said “MJ IS a pedophile”. One side is arguing that there is not enough evidence to be sure of anything, while the normally very rational and critical Dio argues that he is, in fact, guilty, and you’re in denial if you don’t agree. He’s willing to label that man based solely on circumstantial evidence that wasn’t even enough to get a grand jury indictment. I’m just saying that I don’t know, one way or the other, but I know that YOU DON’T KNOW one way or the other either, and for anyone to say otherwise is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008/155 "2009-06-27T02:38:31Z")
Just for the record, pedophilia is defined by _attraction_ to children. It isn’t necessary to actually do anything to them to be a pedophile. I think the circumstantial evidence is very strong that he at least had the attraction, and I think the evidence that he actually molested some of those kids may not be beyond a legal reasonable doubt, but it is convincing to me on a preponderance standard (i.e. I think it’s more likely than not). It’s also not necessary to believe he raped them. I actually doubt that he literally sodomized any of them. I think he was into fondling them. ---
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008/156 "2009-06-27T02:41:36Z")
Just a quick side question: What does Macaulay Culkin have to do with any of this? I’ve seen him mentioned at least twice but can not for the life of me anything he’s done that would warrant him getting brought up in this thread. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008/157 "2009-06-27T02:43:41Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > So. Would you put his dad in jail for MJs actions. His dad took a ride on the Jackson 5 gravytrain. His dad did not sleep with kids. Oh, I really feel Joe Jackson should’ve been put away a long time ago for countless child abuses. All we definitely know is Michael shared a bed with other people’s kids. That’s morally wrong, disgusting and creepy, but it’s not molestation. From Letterman’s Top Ten Things Overheard at Michael Jackson’s trial: “We, the jury, find the defendant creepy.” 😃 Yes, guilty of creepy for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008/158 "2009-06-27T02:54:52Z")
> [@Covered\_In\_Bees](#): > > Just a quick side question: What does Macaulay Culkin have to do with any of this? I’ve seen him mentioned at least twice but can not for the life of me anything he’s done that would warrant him getting brought up in this thread. > > Thanks. Uh… Macaulay was the first child guest in MJ’s Neverland ranch and MJ’s friend. During the trials and suspicions, Macaulay was interviewed by many, including Larry King, on what really goes on in the ranch. He took the stand in the 2005 trial to defend Michael Jackson. [Here’s the LK transcript](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0405/27/lkl.00.html). ---
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008/159 "2009-06-27T02:58:20Z")
Wow! I didn’t know he was the first kid to stay there. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008/160 "2009-06-27T03:04:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Just for the record, pedophilia is defined by _attraction_ to children. It isn’t necessary to actually do anything to them to be a pedophile. I think the circumstantial evidence is very strong that he at least had the attraction, and I think the evidence that he actually molested some of those kids may not be beyond a legal reasonable doubt, but it is convincing to me on a preponderance standard (i.e. I think it’s more likely than not). One other definition for clarity: ALL evidence is either physical, eyewitness or “circumstantial”. If it’s not a cum-stain or the like or a direct observer it is circumstantial. > [@](#): > > It’s also not necessary to believe he raped them. I actually doubt that he literally sodomized any of them. I think he was into fondling them. Anal intercourse is not required for rape. I have a gay friend who has never had anal sex, giving or receiving. I believe Jackson was into masturbation and possibly oral on the kids, and was perfectly content with that. I believe he had this fantasy that they were just two boys “exploring”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-gloved-one/501008.md?page=9)