# Fuck the Kabballah thing - Madonna is NOT Jewish! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 2, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919 "2005-02-02T02:39:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919/21 "2005-02-02T05:40:29Z")
Oh, I know, isn’t it just _awful_? She mentioned it when she was on _Richard and Judy_, and then proceeded to do the hilarious Midwestern accent her hub makes fun of her for (which just doesn’t come across as well in text): “Where’s the caaaaaawwr? Oh my gaaawwwwd, where’s the caaawwwwr?” ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919/22 "2005-02-02T05:41:21Z")
So is she claiming that she’s studying Judaic Kabbalah, or is what she’s into more of a Crowleyan/Hermetic Kabbalah? If the latter, she need not be Jewish to study it. I’ll admit that I don’t know anything about the former, as bound up as it is in strictly Judaic esoterica, but I find some of the concepts of the latter (especially the ten sephira and 32 paths as sort of a Grand Unification Theory of all religion and mythology) extremely fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919/23 "2005-02-02T05:44:45Z")
She does The Kabballah Centre’s “Kabballah”, which was invented by a failed insurance salesman named Yehuda Berg. What TKC sells is weird, expensive, hocus-pocussy BS. Too bad she can’t see that. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919/24 "2005-02-02T09:30:57Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > So is she claiming that she’s studying Judaic Kabbalah, or is what she’s into more of a Crowleyan/Hermetic Kabbalah? If the latter, she need not be Jewish to study it. Strictly speaking the Thelemic/G.’.D.’./O.’.T.’.O.’./A.’.A.’. Kaballah is the same as the Jewish Kaballah. Ironically enough there is virtually no distortion under Fra. Perdurabo’s system. Madonna cannot say the same. > [@Ogre](#): > > I’ll admit that I don’t know anything about the former, as bound up as it is in strictly Judaic esoterica, but I find some of the concepts of the latter (especially the ten sephira and 32 paths There are, technically, 11 Sephirot. Da’ath is a ‘hidden’ sephira which lies between Binah and Chokmah, it represents the Abyss. There are also 22, not 32, paths. > [@Ogre](#): > > as sort of a Grand Unification Theory of all religion and mythology) extremely fascinating. The connections to modern Quantum Mechanics are also fascinating when you consider that the Tree of Life is bound by the three Negative Veils of Existence. Ain - Nothing Ain Soph - The limitless Ain Soph Aur- The limitless light. You will also find, by the way, that Chinese mysticism created the [Yi King](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/finnagain/YiKing.gif), independantly. Food for thought. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919/25 "2005-02-02T09:36:44Z")
I might also add that 0 = 2 and 1 = 3, but I fear we would have moved far afield of a standard discussion of the Tree of Life. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919/26 "2005-02-02T09:43:19Z")
To elaborate further, Da’ath is not, exactly, ‘between’ any sephirot. It is the dividing line between the Supernal Triad and the rest of the Tree of Life. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919/27 "2005-02-02T09:47:29Z")
D’oh! Sephira is singular, Sephirot is plural. Sorry for the four (!!!) posts in a row. Imma shut up now. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919/28 "2005-02-02T10:11:04Z")
Okay, so I lied, one more post before I try to get back to sleep… it is also worth noting that ‘Elohim’ is a **plural** word that, can be argued, is the masculine plural of a feminine noun. This, of course, gets into Tetragramaton, the holy unspeakable name of god… ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919/29 "2005-02-02T11:37:49Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > If someone took, and deliberatly perverted, the teachings of Jesus in order to make a buck, do you think some Christians might have a problem with it? They do it themselves already, no-one seems to have much of a problem with the Holy Rolling charlatans or the rest of them. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919/30 "2005-02-02T11:42:48Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > They do it themselves already, no-one seems to have much of a problem with the Holy Rolling charlatans or the rest of them. Having seen the word pharisees used more than once on the SDMB to refer to other Christians, I have to say that at least some of them do have a problem with it. ---
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919/31 "2005-02-02T13:19:53Z")
> [@kung fu lola](#): > > Madonna did not invent TKC’s “Spiritual Technology.” She has found it to be a useful tool in strengthening her marriage and answering The Big Questions about life, but it is not her brainchild and not her responsibility. I think Berg found himself a useful tool as well. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919/32 "2005-02-02T13:58:11Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > If someone took, and deliberatly perverted, the teachings of Jesus in order to make a buck, do you think some Christians might have a problem with it? > [@SteveG1](#): > > It happens all the time. Televangelists, the whole “values” and “Moral” Majority, yada yada yada. They are all doing it. What does the usual “religious" TV show do? > “Y’all’s goin’ ta hell lessn y’all do what I says. Send me money” Just for clarification: kabbalah is a basically Jewish mysticism, developed from about the 1200s (although some non-historian kabbalists claim it goes back to Moses, of course.) It’s very complicated, very structured mysticism, but it is firmly grounded in Judaism. For example, each mitzvah (commandment) that you do (according to kabbalah) helps perfect a spiritual world that overlaps the physical world. Thus, eating matzah on Passover connects the physical and spiritual worlds. It’s kinda bizarre, but it’s mysticism where the main message is observance of strict/traditional Jewish Law. There are a bunch of California loonies who, finding wealthy people hungry for spiritual fulfillment, have invented a no-work mysticism that they call “kabbalah.” It’s basically taking some of the philosophy of kabbalah but none of the reality, and welding it to some sort of Buddhism-like mockery. These gurus make a fortune. Thus, **FinnAgain** ’s analogy of twisting Jesus’s teachings is on target, but the televangelist analogy is not. The televangelists are using Jesus’ teachings to prey on the gullible, but they at least stick to the main message. Imagine a new religion that picked up on Jesus changing water to wine, and saying that they have a new branch of Christianity where you try to get as drunk as possible, as often as possible. They drop the main message entirely, and focus on the supernatural. Most Christians would be appalled at such a twisting of Jesus’ teachings, I suspect. As most knowledgable Jews are appalled at this twisted thing that calls itself “kabbalah” but ain’t. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919/33 "2005-02-02T14:09:33Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > …saying that they have a new branch of Christianity where you try to get as drunk as possible, as often as possible. Sounds like my college days. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919/34 "2005-02-02T14:12:21Z")
By the way, I just want to make perfectly clear that I’m not authority or past master when it comes to the Tree of Life or Judaism in general. I am only an egg, and I do not grok in fullness. For a jumping off point I would suggest the book “God is a Verb” by Rabbi David Cooper. The language is easy to understand and flows rather well. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919/35 "2005-02-02T15:13:06Z")
Madonna - What’s up with her these days? How many babies does she have? Who are the daddies? She’s old now. An old lady with money. Money for the babies. I liked her better when she was wearing bustiers and fellating soda bottles. She was more accessible then. Ah… memories. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919/36 "2005-02-02T15:30:19Z")
Out of curiosity, are you as annoyed by Jeff Goldblum (who was born and raised Jewish [though largely secular] and who also wears the red strings and praises K as helping him) as you are by Madonna (who of course has many times his Q factor and thus gets more press)? Of course you don’t have to be Jewish to dislike Ashton Kutcher for endorsing Kabballah. Or just to dislike him in general. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919/37 "2005-02-02T15:31:29Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Madonna - What’s up with her these days? She’s married. She writes children’s books. She went on tour this past summer, and now she’s working on a documentary about the tour and anew album. She’s also the new face of Versace. > [@](#): > > _How many babies does she have?_ Two. Lola (Lourdes) is 8 and Rocco is 4. Rumour has it that she and her husband are trying to have a third. It will be her first planned baby. > [@](#): > > - > > Who are the daddies?\* Lola’s dad is Carlos Leon, a personal trainer/actor who has done guest spots on _Law and Order_ and _Nash Bridges_. Rocco’s dad is British film director Guy Ritchie, of _Lock, Stock…_ and _Snatch_ fame. He recently directed a corvette commercial that was banned for “encouraging children to drive cars”. Madonna and Guy got married a few months after Rocco was born. > [@](#): > > _She’s old now._ 46 this August. > [@](#): > > _An old lady with money. Money for the babies. I liked her better when she was wearing bustiers and fellating soda bottles. She was more accessible then. Ah… memories._ It was a water bottle, and yes most of us miss “the old Madonna”. But she gives us glimpses sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919/38 "2005-02-02T15:32:25Z")
…so, is Madonna planning on building herself a golem? ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919/39 "2005-02-02T15:34:35Z")
I thought only gay _men_ knew that much about Madonna (or Cher), **kung fu lola**. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919/40 "2005-02-02T15:56:02Z")
> [@Ukulele Ike](#): > > …so, is Madonna planning on building herself a golem? Yes, and it’s anatomically correct. :eek: As for annoyance at Madonna vs Goldblum, well… Her TVQ does play a role, in that she’s a visible spokescreature and thus an easier target. But the whole damn movement makes my blood boil. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-kabballah-thing-madonna-is-not-jewish/287919.md?page=3)