# Fuck the Law. Fuck the Rules. Fuck Decency. This is Texas Football, motherfuckers! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 7, 2020, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507 "2020-12-07T20:06:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507/101 "2020-12-23T17:04:05Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > No, calling an entire program a “failure” is damnation. There’s a difference between saying they failed in one case and that the whole program is a total failure. That’s the hyperbole. Again, I’m sorry. I don’t believe it’s hyperbole. There are _clearly_ problems with this school’s sports program. They demonstrably tolerated violent behavior from student-athletes. That should be unacceptable. A suspension seems in order. I understand your point of view about individual athletes being punished for the behavior of others. In this case, however, I don’t think I’ll be persuaded to change my view that a suspension of the program is just. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507/102 "2020-12-23T17:13:29Z")
You are awesome. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507/103 "2020-12-23T17:36:10Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > that you were talking about a poor player, that that’s what you meant by “terrible player.” No, the name Myles Garret means nothing to me, sorry, so I don’t know what your point is. He is a Cleveland Brown who ripped off a player’s helmet during a game last season and hit him in the head with it repeatedly (fortunately there was no serious injury). Many people said he should be charged with assault but I don’t remember anyone stating the team should be disciplined as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507/104 "2020-12-23T17:44:32Z")
OK. I’m not sure I think the standards should be the same for pro football as for high school football. I believe team sports in high school should be part of the educational process, not just a free farm team system for the pro leagues, and tolerance of violent behavior on the part of student-athletes demonstrates that the school and the program are not doing their jobs as educators. I don’t believe the standard for what (if any) level of violence is acceptable should be different for athletes than they are for non-athletes, or different on the field than they are in the classroom. This athletic program, and this school, unfortunately, demonstrated that athletes get a pass. They need some time to reconfigure. That’s it. Doesn’t seem radical to me. Let me add something – _if_ this had been the first time this player had acted violently, I might agree that a team suspension is overkill, if the team/school/program had responded appropriately and kicked the kid out of the sports program. But they didn’t. So there’s a problem with the program. That’s how I see it. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507/105 "2020-12-23T18:35:38Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > do you damn an entire program for the conduct of one player? I damn _THIS_ program for the conduct of _THIS_ player. He has a prior history of misconduct (similar incident in a different sport), and the coaches and administration allowed him to play. The coaches and administration are creating a toxic environment of “winning is the only thing; damn the consequences.” In this thread, people have said “why punish the innocent players?” Well, the punishment isn’t actually against the players but against the school. Who is the guiltiest party? The player. AFAIK, he’s still up on felony assault, which I find absolutely correct and fitting. However, there is ample proof that the coaches knew of his temper, and allowed him on the field. The coaches need to be punished. How do you punish the coaches without punishing the team? Suspension? How does the team play with no coaches. There is ample proof that the school administration knew the kid was a problem, yet they did nothing to stop it. The administration needs to be punished. How do you punish the administration? By removing the team from the playoffs, and putting them on probation for two years (exactly what happened). Now that things have calmed down a little bit and more is coming out, please note that the school suspended the player for the rest of the year. He’s a senior, which means he’s done with high school athletics. > [@Ruken](#): > > > [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > > > And don’t we all agree that the function of a sports program at a high school is meant to be educational? > > Their function remains somewhat mysterious to me. I’ve been trying to leave my personal feelings about football in particular aside. Actually, there are a lot of lessons to be pulled from athletics. Working with and as a team. Determination. Overcoming obstacles. If a program is done right, losing with grace; if a program is done really right, winning with grace. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507/106 "2020-12-23T23:27:34Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > 1. […]; 2) […]; 3) […] And 4), actual argument courtesy of @Saintly_Loser (please slap me if my paraphrase is inaccurate): The students aren’t being punished; the educational harm of a poorly run program \> the benefits. Since I don’t know enough about either the benefits or educational harm of a football team, I can’t speak much to this. To label it a “total failure”, you’d have to quantify both. But regardless, we’ll be returning next season to the same coach and same administration. The same coach and same administration that _didn’t_ have any assaults on football officials in past years that we’ve seen. So even if they change nothing, it’s unlikely this will repeat itself. I believe that bad teachers can be worse than no teacher, but when we have a bad teacher or a bad principal I hope we don’t take a “timeout” and kick the students out of geometry for the rest of the semester. There are other teachers. There are other coaches. 1. Actual argument courtesy of @Dr.Winston_OBoogie (same caveats re: slapping): The players aren’t actually being punished; the school is. You can’t really punish a school, just the people in it. The coach has been punished (we can argue if sufficiently so). The admins? _Their_ Dec activities weren’t interrupted. They all still have their jobs. This all strikes me as theater, with the near entirety of the collateral damage of deciding not to play (assuming it’s not actually aimed at the students – we’ve seen people here blaming them) falling on the students who, again, have not been shown to have done anything wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507/107 "2020-12-24T00:21:23Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > OK. > > I’m not sure I think the standards should be the same for pro football as for high school football. > > I believe team sports in high school should be part of the educational process, not just a free farm team system for the pro leagues, and tolerance of violent behavior on the part of student-athletes demonstrates that the school and the program are not doing their jobs as educators. I don’t believe the standard for what (if any) level of violence is acceptable should be different for athletes than they are for non-athletes, or different on the field than they are in the classroom. This athletic program, and this school, unfortunately, demonstrated that athletes get a pass. They need some time to reconfigure. > > That’s it. Doesn’t seem radical to me. > > Let me add something – _if_ this had been the first time this player had acted violently, I might agree that a team suspension is overkill, if the team/school/program had responded appropriately and kicked the kid out of the sports program. But they didn’t. So there’s a problem with the program. > > That’s how I see it. Now I normally would hold professional athletes to a higher standard than high school kids, so to me the NFL should be more strict, but that’s just me. I think we are mostly in agreement. I differ in that I would defer major penalties to the school and/or district until they had instances of more than one athlete with behavioral problems like this, but otherwise I agree with everything you said. The school does need to be held accountable when they allow these things to happen. I have no objection to any of the measures that were taken, I think they were appropriate. > [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > Now that things have calmed down a little bit and more is coming out, please note that the school suspended the player for the rest of the year. He’s a senior, which means he’s done with high school athletics. That’s a really good point, as a senior being suspended is effectively a permanent ban, unless he repeats a year of high school. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507/108 "2020-12-24T01:42:38Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > You can’t really punish a school, just the people in it. Actually I would imagine the program brings in a fair amount of money (maybe not enough to be profitable per se, but enough to cover a significant percentage of costs) and they will have lost revenue because of the postseason ban. So, in that sense, the program was punished. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507/109 "2020-12-24T01:47:31Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Actually I would imagine the program brings in a fair amount of money (maybe not enough to be profitable per se, but enough to cover a significant percentage of costs) and they will have lost revenue because of the postseason ban. So, in that sense, the program was punished. While I doubt this would be true most places, this _is_ Texas. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507/110 "2020-12-24T02:37:43Z")
And my statement was predicated on that fact. I know _my_ high school didn’t make shit off athletic events. We had boosters and lots of fund raisers. The actual revenue from a game was an afterthought. But in Texas, they pack them in by the thousands. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507/111 "2020-12-24T15:36:57Z")
And remember, it’s unjust to prevent them from selling those tickets and nachos at the next game even if the free safety takes out a gun and shoots the referee in the head. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507/112 "2020-12-24T15:46:02Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > And my statement was predicated on that fact. I know _my_ high school didn’t make shit off athletic events. We had boosters and lots of fund raisers. The actual revenue from a game was an afterthought. But in Texas, they pack them in by the thousands. - Gotta get the money somewhere for that +60 million dollar stadium. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507/113 "2020-12-24T16:27:03Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > And remember, it’s unjust to prevent them from selling those tickets and nachos at the next game even if the free safety takes out a gun and shoots the referee in the head. Are you capable of even _trying_ to be rational on this issue or am I just setting myself up for crushing disappointment? ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507/114 "2020-12-24T16:45:13Z")
Don’t bother, this is his schtick. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507/115 "2020-12-24T16:59:10Z")
Thanks for letting me know. 👍 ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507/116 "2020-12-24T17:20:25Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Are you capable of even _trying_ to be rational on this issue or am I just setting myself up for crushing disappointment? What is it that you think the word “rational” means? I’m the only one using reason here. You explicitly said that you don’t think the team should be punished even if the player actually kills the referee. I don’t even need to draw it out as the logical implication of your statements like with Ruken, you said it straight up. “Repeating my insane beliefs to show how insane they are makes you the irrational one” isn’t gonna cut it. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507/117 "2020-12-24T18:01:04Z")
Judging from the names of those involved, and the areas around the high school, it looks like Edinburg HS serves a mostly-Hispanic community. So, since we’re playing with hypotheticals, let’s imagine a situation (one that’s a lot more plausible than “the free safety busts a cap in the ref”): Edinburg has a hot-shot wide receiver. Maintains a 3.7 GPA and has never had anything on his disciplinary record. Word’s gotten out, and two or three Division I schools are sending scouts to watch his last few games; a football scholarship would mean he’ll be the first in his family to go to college. Unfortunately, thanks to his dumbass teammate, his football season is over; no scouts, no scholarship, no college education. He’s headed for a career stocking shelves at the San Antonio Walmart for minimum wage. Does the collective punishment still seem fair? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507/118 "2020-12-24T18:25:16Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Edinburg has a hot-shot wide receiver. Maintains a 3.7 GPA and has never had anything on his disciplinary record. Word’s gotten out, and two or three Division I schools are sending scouts to watch his last few games; a football scholarship would mean he’ll be the first in his family to go to college. I can guarantee you that, by that point, If he’s Div. 1 material, he’s well known and doesn’t need scouting. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507/119 "2020-12-24T18:42:48Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > And my statement was predicated on that fact. I know _my_ high school didn’t make shit off athletic events. We had boosters and lots of fund raisers. The actual revenue from a game was an afterthought. But in Texas, they pack them in by the thousands. Best I can find from their financial statements is that the _district_ (four high schools IIRC) spends $9.1M on athletics and lists $470k revenue “FROM LOCAL/INTER”, most of that under “COCURRICULAR/ENTERPRSE SRV/AC”. The only other place “cocurricular” shows up in any [ecisd.us](http://ecisd.us) site is on an ROTC page, so I’m stumped on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507/120 "2020-12-24T18:47:23Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Does the collective punishment still seem fair? Remember, statements are stronger than questions. E.g.: > Bystanders’ punishment should be proportional to the severity of the crime they didn’t commit. I’m pretty sure we can all get behind that one. Maybe bulldoze their families’ homes too while we’re at it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-law-fuck-the-rules-fuck-decency-this-is-texas-football-motherfuckers/927507.md?page=7)