# Fuck the Motherfucking Pope **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182 "2010-05-20T21:15:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/181 "2010-05-21T19:05:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not a precious fertilized egg. It’s a human being. A small, defenseless, human being. In your opinion. Don’t state it as fact. You’re not being honest. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/182 "2010-05-21T19:06:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I doubt it very much. The church (no need to capitalize the word, there are thousands of churches) 1. does not change “immediately”, and 2. would respond only with statements of distress that the flock had refused to hear the Word but would always be welcomed back, etc. Nothing can make people who genuinely believe they were chosen by God and are acting on His will consider the possibility that they were themselves mistaken. Thus you absolve the laity. Bullshit. They have the power, just as the voters in the US have the power. If they won’t use it, that’s on them. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/183 "2010-05-21T19:06:42Z")
Now, I recognize that secular law provides a very different view of this situation. But no one’s talking about violating secular law. The RCC is saying, in effect, “Here’s our club, and these are our club rules. If you don’t follow them, you’re suspended from the club.” And all of you non-Catholics are screaming about how unfair it is. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/184 "2010-05-21T19:08:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’d hate to have you in charge of deciding the fate of conjoined twins. “Yeah, that one’s extra; kill it.” “That one’s killing the other one and then **both** will die. Kill it.” You bet. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/185 "2010-05-21T19:08:32Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Yes. I am responsible for all of the atrocities the US has committed in my name, and everything done by the US is done in my name. Everything. That’s why it’s serious when a president lies and kills people, Bricker. That’s why it’s more than debate games and winning. OK. I disagree. But as long as you’re responsible, I want to know why the state of indigent defense funding in this country is such a mess. It’s impossible for indigent defendants in many cases to get competent representation, and, frankly, I blame you. So get right on that, would you? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/186 "2010-05-21T19:09:53Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > “That one’s killing the other one and then **both** will die. Kill it.” > > You bet. Well, as I have already said, I personally agree with this point. If the alternatives are death for one or death for both, then obviously death for only one is preferable. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/187 "2010-05-21T19:10:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not a precious fertilized egg. It’s a human being. A small, defenseless, human being. > > No, that poor defenseless unborn child shouldn’t get primary concern. But neither should he (or he) get secondary concern or no concern at all. There are two human patients involved. > > I’d hate to have you in charge of deciding the fate of conjoined twins. “Yeah, that one’s extra; kill it.” It’s so much easier just to let them _both_ die and wash your hands, right? Because that is _exactly_ what we are talking about here. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/188 "2010-05-21T19:14:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How do you figure that? Excommunication is not at all like being fired. it’s like being suspended; you can’t come in to work, but you still have your job. All it means it you cannot approach the sacraments – except, of course, the sacrament of penance. Well, as you yourself say… [QUOTE=Bricker] For the nun, of course excommunication is a big deal, but in this case, when the lifting of that _ **penalty** _ is as close at hand as making a good confession, I don’t believe it’s fair to say it’s a disaster. [/QUOTE] and… [QUOTE=Bricker] The purpose of excommunication is to cut you off from the church, to deny you access to the sacraments so that you may realize the grave danger your actions have to your soul. [/QUOTE] (Emphasis added). It’s a penalty. A punishment. Administrative leave specifically isn’t. Even if I accept your idea it is more like a suspension, then the cop analogy still fails. And, as I’m not a Catholic, you know better than I the seriousness or not of it. The idea of removal of the sacraments, and removal of the chance to be buried in a church cemetary etc strikes me as pretty damn severe, especially for a nun. Is there any difference in what happens if you die while still excommunicated and die while being able to receive sacraments? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/189 "2010-05-21T19:14:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It’s so much easier just to let them _both_ die and wash your hands, right? Because that is _exactly_ what we are talking about here. . . > [@Bricker](#): > > Well, as I have already said, I personally agree with this point. If the alternatives are death for one or death for both, then obviously death for only one is preferable. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/190 "2010-05-21T19:16:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK. > > I disagree. > > But as long as you’re responsible, I want to know why the state of indigent defense funding in this country is such a mess. It’s impossible for indigent defendants in many cases to get competent representation, and, frankly, I blame you. > > So get right on that, would you? How much power does the laity have? If the laity said, “Enough!” what would happen? If the US voters said “Enough!” about the indigent defense funding, it would change. I know jack shit about indigent defense funding, and I’m sure that’s true of most US voters. Does the laity of the RCC know jack shit about something that’s been in the news for years? Is the laity powerless to do anything? Does the state of the law in the US reflect the will of the voters? Does the state of the law in the RCC reflect the will of the laity? Do people get the government, and the churches, they deserve? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/191 "2010-05-21T19:16:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Now, I recognize that secular law provides a very different view of this situation. > > But no one’s talking about violating secular law. The RCC is saying, in effect, “Here’s our club, and these are our club rules. If you don’t follow them, you’re suspended from the club.” > > And all of you non-Catholics are screaming about how unfair it is. I’m not all that keen on NAMBLA either, but not because they turned down my application. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/192 "2010-05-21T19:20:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not a precious fertilized egg. It’s a human being. A small, defenseless, human being. > > No, that poor defenseless unborn child shouldn’t get primary concern. But neither should he (or he) get secondary concern or no concern at all. There are two human patients involved. > > I’d hate to have you in charge of deciding the fate of conjoined twins. “Yeah, that one’s extra; kill it.” An ectopic pregnancy is a human being? That’s one of the stupidest things I’ve ever read. Especially coming from a defender of an organization that apparently doesn’t give a shit when actual human beings get hurt by priests who molest them. FYI, after multiple failed fertility procedures I can indeed bitterly tell you that a fertilized egg is not a goddamned person. I wish to god it were. ☹ > [@jsgoddess](#): > > I don’t know what missive you’re talking about Bricker writing, but that is the current teaching of the RCC. > > All things being equal (which they never are), if there were two methods of removing an ectopic pregnancy which both led to good outcomes for the woman and one had a little twist to it that made it more palatable to the RCC, that’d be hunky dory for me. > > The problem is that they are not equal. The one the RCC favors leads to demonstrably worse outcomes and, of course, none of the men making these rules ever has to worry about it. > > But women do. Married, non slutty women, do. Married, non slutty women who want to be pregnant do. And so they abide by the rules of the church and condemn themselves to higher risk from then on so that people with penises don’t call them sinners and write cute little rules that automate a punishment–so they don’t even have to think about it and sully their astonishingly clean hands. > > I don’t think I even need to point out who else had clean fucking hands. Yeah that’s what I was referencing. One of the single stupidest things I’ve ever heard of. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/193 "2010-05-21T19:20:22Z")
But you still wash your hands when you state that, while you _personally_ feel that way, it is church canon(NOT “law”), so watchagonna do? Right? It’s been asked before, and I’ll ask it again-what the hell has to go down before you decide that enough is enough and you dump the church? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/194 "2010-05-21T19:20:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Now, I recognize that secular law provides a very different view of this situation. > > But no one’s talking about violating secular law. The RCC is saying, in effect, “Here’s our club, and these are our club rules. If you don’t follow them, you’re suspended from the club.” > > And all of you non-Catholics are screaming about how unfair it is. Actually, this former Catholic is saying that the RCC is culpable for its actions and should be regarded with the same contempt any organization that promotes unsafe and discriminatory practices should be. Oh, and they cover up for kid rapists. I refuse to forget that part. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/195 "2010-05-21T19:21:58Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Thus you absolve the laity. Bullshit. They have the power, just as the voters in the US have the power. If they won’t use it, that’s on them. Their only power is to _leave_, not to change. All decisions of any substance, including personnel matters, are made by the ordained. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/196 "2010-05-21T19:23:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But no one’s talking about violating secular law. The RCC is saying, in effect, “Here’s our club, and these are our club rules. If you don’t follow them, you’re suspended from the club.” > > And all of you non-Catholics are screaming about how unfair it is. Is anyone saying it is unfair as such? Cold-hearted, unethical, stupid, wrong-headed… all those I see. But I don’t think people are saying it is unfair. The closest I can see is the idea that it is ridiculous to have a rule that automatically suspends you from the club for taking part in an abortion, but doesn’t if you diddle little boys. And again, I don’t think that is a thing about the fairness of the rules, as opposed to their bloody stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/197 "2010-05-21T19:24:22Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Well, as you yourself say… > > and… > > (Emphasis added). > > It’s a penalty. A punishment. Administrative leave specifically isn’t. Even if I accept your idea it is more like a suspension, then the cop analogy still fails. And, as I’m not a Catholic, you know better than I the seriousness or not of it. The idea of removal of the sacraments, and removal of the chance to be buried in a church cemetary etc strikes me as pretty damn severe, especially for a nun. > > Is there any difference in what happens if you die while still excommunicated and die while being able to receive sacraments? An excommunication imposed by juridical process is somewhat different than a latae sententiae excommunication. The latter is serious, but fixable as I said by reception of penance. I don’t discount the severity of the state, but in this case, the penalty is so easily removable that the overall effect is no fairly characterized as a disaster. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/198 "2010-05-21T19:24:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Now, I recognize that secular law provides a very different view of this situation. > > But no one’s talking about violating secular law. Hell, yes, we are. Raping children is _illegal_. Aiding and abetting child rapists is _illegal_. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: > [@](#): > > The RCC is saying, in effect, “Here’s our club, and these are our club rules. If you don’t follow them, you’re suspended from the club.” > > And all of you non-Catholics are screaming about how unfair it is. We’re all “screaming” about how their actions are both illegal and immoral. Your responses are merely “The RCC is always right by definition. Go pound sand.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/199 "2010-05-21T19:27:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But you still wash your hands when you state that, while you _personally_ feel that way, it is church canon(NOT “law”), so watchagonna do? Right? > It’s been asked before, and I’ll ask it again-what the hell has to go down before you decide that enough is enough and you dump the church? I can’t imagine anything that would make me dump the belief in Christ, and in his intention to found a church on Earth, and his handing to Peter the leadership of that body. But I could imagine scenarios that would make me withdraw from participation in the current institution. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/200 "2010-05-21T19:27:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > An excommunication imposed by juridical process is somewhat different than a latae sententiae excommunication. The latter is serious, but fixable as I said by reception of penance. I don’t discount the severity of the state, but in this case, the penalty is so easily removable that the overall effect is no fairly characterized as a disaster. But it is still an explicit punishment, as you make clear. And - is there any difference to what happens in Catholic belief if a person dies while excommunicated or dies when not? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182.md?page=11)