# Fuck the Motherfucking Pope **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182 "2010-05-20T21:15:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/221 "2010-05-21T20:25:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You also conflate the issue of child abuse and molestation, a gravely serious problem but one practiced by – what - one hundredth of one percent of the church body? Ok, say it is even less than that, it doesn’t change the fact that the hierarchy, the creme of the spiritual crop, those earthly few how are the closest thing to god we have on Earth are not only covering up, but actively supporting and protecting child rapists! The fact that you and your ilk are such sheeple, I doubt there is anything they could do to make you question them. As a certain senator once said, “have you no sense of decency!” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/222 "2010-05-21T20:25:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Let me tell you what clues I am relying upon in deciding that you’re not quite serious. > > _Please, prey tell-if child abuse and molestation, the subjugation of women, the condemnation of gays and the suppression of needed birth control(the list can be made much longer easily, btw) isn’t enough, what the fuck is?_ > > You frame this question in a manner that’s … less than neutral. One might even call it hostile. > > You also conflate the issue of child abuse and molestation, a gravely serious problem but one practiced by – what - one hundredth of one percent of the church body? Make a more generous estimate, and also add in the hierarchy who didn’t do it, but acted to protect the Church instead of the victims, and maybe you get to one tenth of a percent. But your line mixes it right in with condemnation of gays, something that’s a part of actual doctrine. > > That seems dishonest to me, almost as if you didn’t care about telling the truth at all. Almost as if you wanted it accepted without question that the doctrine of the church is to abuse and molest children. You know that isn’t so, and if you say, “Sure it is,” then I think we’ve finished our discussion. > > In fact, it lets me answer the question: THAT would make me leave the Church institution. If the leadership announced, “Actually, we’re making it official: we exist to rape and abuse children, and that’s part and parcel of our doctrine from now on.” > > OK? > > There’s your answer, helpfully suggested by your own question. The really sad thing is that you probably think you came out ahead in this exchange. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/223 "2010-05-21T20:28:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The really sad thing is that you probably think you came out ahead in this exchange. Put it this way - atheists are responsible for far more murders than Roman Catholic priests have molested boys. Yet you cling to the belief. Have you no shame? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/224 "2010-05-21T20:29:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Let me tell you what clues I am relying upon in deciding that you’re not quite serious. > > _Please, prey tell-if child abuse and molestation, the subjugation of women, the condemnation of gays and the suppression of needed birth control(the list can be made much longer easily, btw) isn’t enough, what the fuck is?_ > > You frame this question in a manner that’s … less than neutral. One might even call it hostile. I think most people would be hostile to an organization that has done these things. It’s just when they are shielded by the concept of “church” that they remain remotely acceptable. I mean, if we can’t be hostile to the idea of shielding child molesters, what can we be hostile to? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/225 "2010-05-21T20:30:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Look, the U.S. and each of its states are governed by secular law. There are tow or three ongoing threads right now about Arizona’s law. > > Not one person posted there that “So, basically, Arizona is governed by secular law, created by the legislature, and that sucks!” Human law is, by definition, fallible. The RCC is claiming to be acting under God’s law, which they’re just interpreting for us. That’s a big fucking difference right there. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Time for the perfect crime. The Muslims will blow up a bunch of people, and the Catholics will make sure nobody finds out. If I were the signature-having type, this would be stolen. > [@Bricker](#): > > For the nun, of course excommunication is a big deal, but in this case, when the lifting of that penalty is as close at hand as making a good confession, I don’t believe it’s fair to say it’s a disaster. But what if she had known that it was “wrong” to allow the abortion, according to Church doctrine, and refused to admit that it was a sin and said she would do it again if presented with the same choice? Do you think she’d deserve to be permanently excommunicated then? > [@Bricker](#): > > I do not agree with the proposition that all abortions are wrong. In my view, when death of both mother and unborn child is virtually certain if nothing is done, it’s not wrong to perform even a direct abortion when the intent is to save the life of the only person that can be saved. I realize that my personal view is not in direct alignment with the Church’s teaching. Guess what? [You’ve just excommunicated yourself.](http://www.catholicplanet.com/articles/article78.htm) Hope you never wanted Eucharist again. Not to mention, you just directly contradicted what you said here: > [@Bricker](#): > > If that’s the case, then they should continue to be mad, because that’s what we believe. It would be just as evil for me to kill you so that I might live. It’s evil to kill one person so that another might live, you said, and you think a fetus, even a zygote, is a person. So which is it? You couldn’t have been accurately expressing your opinion both times. Which time were you wrong? > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The church (no need to capitalize the word, there are thousands of churches) A church is a building. The (Roman Catholic) Church is an institution. Capitalization does not necessarily indicate any respect; it’s just correct nomenclature. > [@Bricker](#): > > But no one’s talking about violating secular law. The RCC is saying, in effect, “Here’s our club, and these are our club rules. If you don’t follow them, you’re suspended from the club.” > > And all of you non-Catholics are screaming about how unfair it is. Just because I think the Sacraments are fairytale crap doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate the seriousness of excommuncation for someone who believes in them. What, only Catholics are allowed to comment on what complete bullshit this is? :rolleyes: > [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > (Clue: Remember, the Pope is Infallible!) I can’t decide of this or the “Immaculate Conception”\* is my Catholic Misunderstanding Pet Peeve. Papal infallibility has to be explicitly invoked; it doesn’t apply to everything the pope says or does. \*This does not refer to the conception of Jesus without sexual intercourse. It refers to the conception of Mary without original sin. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/226 "2010-05-21T20:31:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Put it this way - atheists are responsible for far more murders than Roman Catholic priests have molested boys. Yet you cling to the belief. > > Have you no shame? > > Regards, > Shodan Off-topic bumper sticker mentality that doesn’t deserve a direct response. Typical, and sadly expected. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/227 "2010-05-21T20:35:25Z")
The really sad thing is that _he_ probably thinks\* he\* came out ahead in that exchange. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/228 "2010-05-21T20:40:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Put it this way - atheists are responsible for far more murders than Roman Catholic priests have molested boys. Yet you cling to the belief. Catholics believe in transubstantiation–the literal transformation of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus. And then they eat it. And you can’t eat someone without killing them. So, clearly, Catholics are mass murderers. Look, I can make shit up people should feel ashamed about, too! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/229 "2010-05-21T20:44:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Let me tell you what clues I am relying upon in deciding that you’re not quite serious. How seriously must the question be phrased to make it acceptable? The child molestation and cover-ups are matters of fact, not speculation, and a corporation whose employees participated in something like this (even if it was only 1%) would surely face repercussions. Would you boycott a corporation under these conditions (i.e. it was revealed that molester employees, though a minority within the company, were protected by the company)? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/230 "2010-05-21T20:47:31Z")
It’s just classic **Bricker**. He expounds tediously upon things he believes he understands, then sidesteps awkward questions he’d rather not consider. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/231 "2010-05-21T21:20:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You also conflate the issue of child abuse and molestation, a gravely serious problem but one practiced by – what - one hundredth of one percent of the church body? Make a more generous estimate, and also add in the hierarchy who didn’t do it, but acted to protect the Church instead of the victims, and maybe you get to one tenth of a percent. But your line mixes it right in with condemnation of gays, something that’s a part of actual doctrine. The 2004 John Jay Report was based on a study of 10,667 allegations against 4,392 priests accused of engaging in sexual abuse of a minor between 1950 and 2002. The number 4,392 represents four percent of the 109,694 priests in active ministry during that time. Of the 11,000-odd allegations, 6,700 were investigated and substantiated against 1,872 priests, and another 1,000 were unsubstantiated against 824 priests. The remaining 3,300 allegations were not investigated because the priests involved had died by the time the allegations were made. Cite: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic\_sex\_abuse\_cases#Statistics\_on\_offenders\_and\_victims](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#Statistics_on_offenders_and_victims) 1,872 priests out of 109,694. That’s 1.7% of the priests. Which is **170 times** more prevelant than you claimed and that doesn’t even include the number who weren’t investigated because they were dead at the time, nor does it include any of the priests’ superiors who knew of the situation and hid it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/232 "2010-05-21T21:25:58Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > The 2004 John Jay Report was based on a study of 10,667 allegations against 4,392 priests accused of engaging in sexual abuse of a minor between 1950 and 2002. The number 4,392 represents four percent of the 109,694 priests in active ministry during that time. > Of the 11,000-odd allegations, 6,700 were investigated and substantiated against 1,872 priests, and another 1,000 were unsubstantiated against 824 priests. The remaining 3,300 allegations were not investigated because the priests involved had died by the time the allegations were made. > Cite: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic\_sex\_abuse\_cases#Statistics\_on\_offenders\_and\_victims](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#Statistics_on_offenders_and_victims) > > 1,872 priests out of 109,694. That’s 1.7% of the priests. Which is **170 times** more prevelant than you claimed and that doesn’t even include the number who weren’t investigated because they were dead at the time, nor does it include any of the priests’ superiors who knew of the situation and hid it. Of that percentage, what percent were turned over to the authorities as soon as the church found out about their problem? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/233 "2010-05-21T21:33:01Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > It’s not the doctrine, it’s the church protocol, that makes it SOP to just pass along a child molesting priest to another parish, (no police involvement, even though a serious crime has been committed), no warning to the new parish. Who’s conflating things now? You are, still, only now it’s the past with the present. Yes, the church DID that. They certainly don’t now, do they? This is utterly and completely Catholic bashing, because that was not an inadvertant slip and you have no reason to use the present tense. You did it because you love kicking the Church. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/234 "2010-05-21T21:34:48Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > The 2004 John Jay Report was based on a study of 10,667 allegations against 4,392 priests accused of engaging in sexual abuse of a minor between 1950 and 2002. The number 4,392 represents four percent of the 109,694 priests in active ministry during that time. > Of the 11,000-odd allegations, 6,700 were investigated and substantiated against 1,872 priests, and another 1,000 were unsubstantiated against 824 priests. The remaining 3,300 allegations were not investigated because the priests involved had died by the time the allegations were made. > Cite: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic\_sex\_abuse\_cases#Statistics\_on\_offenders\_and\_victims](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#Statistics_on_offenders_and_victims) > > 1,872 priests out of 109,694. That’s 1.7% of the priests. Which is **170 times** more prevelant than you claimed and that doesn’t even include the number who weren’t investigated because they were dead at the time, nor does it include any of the priests’ superiors who knew of the situation and hid it. I said: “of the church body.” That’s not the same as “of the clergy.” But OK, let’s take your figures. What’s the equivalent for, say, youth swim coaches? Or Little League coaches? Or daycare workers? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/235 "2010-05-21T21:39:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This is utterly and completely Catholic bashing, because that was not an inadvertant slip and you have no reason to use the present tense. You did it because you love kicking the Church. There is a difference between Catholic bashing and Catholic Church bashing. It’s very important to understand that distinction. It’s comparable to the difference between hating Jews and hating the policies of Israel. > [@Bricker](#): > > But OK, let’s take your figures. What’s the equivalent for, say, youth swim coaches? Or Little League coaches? Or daycare workers? Again, you’re completely missing the problem. It was terrible that so many children were abused. But the biggest problem was not the abuse: it was that the abuse was officially and systematically covered up, and done so in such a way that enabled further, continuing abuse by the same abusers. Show me \*any \*other institution where abusers were covered for and shuffled from post to post. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/236 "2010-05-21T21:44:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I said: “of the church body.” That’s not the same as “of the clergy.” > > But OK, let’s take your figures. What’s the equivalent for, say, youth swim coaches? Or Little League coaches? Or daycare workers? Hey! Lookie over _there!!_ ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/237 "2010-05-21T21:47:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You are, still, only now it’s the past with the present. > > Yes, the church DID that. They certainly don’t now, do they? How would we know? The only thing we know is that they _did_, in fact, do it- and they lied about it then, too. Why do you believe them _now_? > [@Bricker](#): > > This is utterly and completely Catholic bashing, because that was not an inadvertant slip and you have no reason to use the present tense. You did it because you love kicking the Church. Hell, I’m in this thread because I love kicking child molesters and the organizations which protect them. I don’t have anything against the Catholic religion- I’m against the Catholic Church, and for their very specific actions. Why are you defending them? If anything, you should be taking them to task. They’re giving you and your fellow Catholics a bad name. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/238 "2010-05-21T21:47:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, the church DID that. They certainly don’t now, do they? And you know this how? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/239 "2010-05-21T21:47:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, the church DID that. They certainly don’t now, do they? Says you, show us some evidence. Beyond the rationalizations and decrees of a man already guilty of doing just so, many times over, and who is now, head of this evil organization. This is the 21st fucking century. Are you trying to tell me that, up until a month ago, and some bad press, the highest authorities in the Catholic Church had no inkling that maybe it’s not okay to just cover up child abuse and pass along the perpetrators to another parish without so much as a warning. Not to mention never contacting civil authorities over a very evil crime. The highest authorities, in your church, didn’t understand this was not the moral thing to do? Seriously? And you’re here defending this organization and their authorities. You are what’s wrong with Catholicism, and the very embodiment of this quotation, (“Morality is doing what is right, no matter what you’re told. Religion is doing what you’re told, no matter what is right.”) which is why I included it. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/240 "2010-05-21T21:51:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I said: “of the church body.” That’s not the same as “of the clergy.” Well, yeah. I mean, I know some people have accused everyone who’s Catholic to be complicit in these crimes, but I don’t think that’s a fair way to evaluate how widespread the problem is. I mean, if we did that. Damn. People are people. There’s going to be all sorts of messed up things we’ll find when we start digging, but I doubt there are any hard numbers available on Catholics alone. My inclination? It’s just a taaaaad higher than “one hundredth of one percent.” > [@](#): > > But OK, let’s take your figures. What’s the equivalent for, say, youth swim coaches? Or Little League coaches? Or daycare workers? And here we have to ask Czarcasm’s question again. “Of that percentage, what percent were turned over to the authorities as soon as the (Youth swim coach association/Little League/Daycare) found out about their problem?” I think we can both agree that every single profession on this planet has at least one child molester in its ranks. And while that’s a problem, the real question is what happens when he or she is discovered. And I’d seriously be ashamed of any Little League that claimed child molestation wasn’t reportable to a legal authority because its bylaws never bothered to address the issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182.md?page=13)