# Fuck the Motherfucking Pope **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182 "2010-05-20T21:15:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/481 "2010-05-24T19:38:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Thank you for your kind invitation, but I will decline it, since lobbying, petitions, and protests are also available to me as a means to try to change both church policy and canon law. Indeed, “running for office” also has an analog: there are lay positions on the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, which is an important policy-making organization. So you are changing your tune from “Wish I could do something about it, but I can’t” to “I _could_ do something about it, but I don’t want to bother.” ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/482 "2010-05-24T19:40:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But the basis for your rejection of this approach is: _The egg is not a person._ > > It’s “an egg.” It’s an embryo, a pregnancy. A person. > > You disagree. That’s fine. You’re wrong, but you’re not unreasonable in your view. You’re just medically wrong. A fertilized egg may mean a person. More often it means nothing at all. Go look up the terms aneuploidy, early miscarriage, chemical pregnancy and the rates of good eggs even in young women and get back to me. The fact that your church feels comfortable telling women to go through an invasive medical procedure solely because they cannot distinguish between a person and fertilized egg incapable of life is revolting. This is not about a philosphical disagreement. This is about women ill served by bad medicine practiced by people ludicrously claiming to hold the high moral ground. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/483 "2010-05-24T19:43:06Z")
How influential are the lay positions on the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops? Are there examples of public statements by any of them about the RCC should change? Were any of these changes made? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/484 "2010-05-24T19:44:54Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m not aware of any other organization that has shuffled child molesters on the same scale for as many decades as the RCC, but I daresay if another one came to light, I’d view them the same way. Can you please clarify what you mean by canon and civil law? I wasn’t talking about involving secular authority, just what the RCC would have to do to clean up its own house. I meant that as a priest and catholic he has rights regarding any judgement ion canon law, and that as a citizen he also has all the protections of civil law esp. presumption of innocence. Cleaning up house would definitely entail some police action if criminals are found. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/485 "2010-05-24T19:47:45Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > :rolleyes: Do you hide the good silver when a Black man attends, too? Sure. Because a person’s race is the exact same thing as belonging to an organization that has an ugly history of willfully shielding pedophiles. If the Catholic church has an image problem it has only itself to blame right now. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/486 "2010-05-24T19:51:54Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I meant that as a priest and catholic he has rights regarding any judgement ion canon law, and that as a citizen he also has all the protections of civil law esp. presumption of innocence. Cleaning up house would definitely entail some police action if criminals are found. I’m not familiar with the canon rights you describe (feel free to elaborate) but in any case, other organizations can reassign or fire personnel with or without the involvement of the police. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/487 "2010-05-24T19:59:21Z")
Question, **Bricker** – what is the Church’s policy on an abortion for an already dead fetus? Like, if during an exam, it is discovered that the fetus has died in utero, surely an abortion is allowed in this case, right? Believe me, **Bricker** , I get no pleasure from this thread. I was raised Catholic, and while I have fond memories of my friends and teachers from school, I’ll be damned if I ever raise any child of mine in the Church. And if I ever get married, I’d always wanted to do so in the church I grew up in – I was baptised, confirmed, and had my communion there. But that’s impossible. It isn’t the bashers turning against the church – it’s the Church turning the people away with their actions. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/488 "2010-05-24T20:00:19Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > The distinction seems to be someone who’s intentionally harming you. So, like, if I trip and fall on you, you can’t stab me in the eye. … > > The RCC position is that while someone may choose to sacrifice themself to save you, you can’t kill someone else to save yourself. I think I gave an analogy upthread of two people stranded at sea. If I club you over the head while you’re sleeping and eat you to keep myself alive long enough to reach land, when the alternative is that we would both starve to death at sea, that’s still murder. At least YOUR analogies make a bit of sense. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/489 "2010-05-24T20:05:51Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > You’re just medically wrong. A fertilized egg may mean a person. More often it means nothing at all. Go look up the terms aneuploidy, early miscarriage, chemical pregnancy and the rates of good eggs even in young women and get back to me. Medically wrong? Really? Aneuploidy refers to missing and/or extra chromosones, IIRC. A person with Down’s syndrome is a victim of this disorder. Surely you’re not saying that, medically, a Down’s syndrome sufferer is not a person? Why don’t you tell me what _medically_ invalidates my claim that a ferticlized egg is not a person? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/490 "2010-05-24T20:07:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So you are changing your tune from “Wish I could do something about it, but I can’t” to “I _could_ do something about it, but I don’t want to bother.” If I am, I would note it’s in response to you changing your tune and my wish to keep up with the melody. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/491 "2010-05-24T20:18:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But the basis for your rejection of this approach is: _The egg is not a person._ > > It’s “an egg.” It’s an embryo, a pregnancy. A person. > > You disagree. That’s fine. You’re wrong, but you’re not unreasonable in your view. The fact is, it doesn’t matter if the egg is a person, a cell, or the fifteenth Dalai Lama. The egg has got to go in this circumstance. If the egg does not die, person or not, then the mother is going to die AND the egg is still going to die. This egg is on its way out one way or another. Now, there are a few ways the egg can die - the church requires that you take the more dangerous, more invasive one for _no reason_ other than some weird work-around of their rules. That is some whack shit. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/492 "2010-05-24T20:27:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Aneuploidy refers to missing and/or extra chromosones, IIRC. A person with Down’s syndrome is a victim of this disorder. Surely you’re not saying that, medically, a Down’s syndrome sufferer is not a person? Well, actually, Down Syndrome is one of the very few aneuplodal conditions that allow survival at all. Most such disorders leads to spontaneous abortion or death shortly after birth. I’m just mentioning this for the heck of it. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/493 "2010-05-24T20:39:42Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > … If the egg does not die, person or not, then the mother is going to die AND the egg is still going to die. This egg is on its way out one way or another. Now, there are a few ways the egg can die - the church requires that you take the more dangerous, more invasive one for _no reason_ other than some weird work-around of their rules. That is some whack shit. I thought that bore some repeating. If the embryo is dying, or will die, it makes no sense to risk the mother’s life and thereby cause her death too. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/494 "2010-05-24T20:46:45Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Sure. Because a person’s race is the exact same thing as belonging to an organization that has an ugly history of willfully shielding pedophiles. If the Catholic church has an image problem it has only itself to blame right now. The vast majority of Catholic priests never abused anyone and I’m sure most of them were not directly involved in the coverups or had any knowledge of them. While I think their religion, like all religions, is fucking retarded, I can at least appreciate the sentiment of a person who wishes to dedicate their life to serving others, which is in theory what a priest does, and was the goal for many if not most of them. So for you to treat every single priest like a potential pedophile because of the actions of their institution is, IMO, almost as grossly unfair as treating every Black man like a potential thief. (Look, I’ll even bring some choice into the scenario: you can feel comfortable with a Black man in business casual, but one with oversized jeans, a lot of jewelry, and several tattoos would have you locking cabinets.) The Catholic \*Church \*is absolutely to blame for its own image problem. \*Individual \*priests, however, do not automatically deserve that kind of disgust. Grain of salt: I know some truly awesome Jesuits whom it would make me very sad to see you treat in this way. > [@SteveG1](#): > > At least YOUR analogies make a bit of sense. Welp, I was raised Catholic, and up through high school spent a good amount of time trying to make all this shit fit together in some sort of logical way. So while I’ve been very atheist for years now, all the old framework is still kicking around in the back of my head–I don’t agree with it, but I can at least see why they think the way they do. ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/495 "2010-05-24T20:50:19Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > You can’t abort an ectopic pregnancy. You can just remove the fallopian tube, which has the unfortunate \*secondary \*effect of also killing the fetus. Right; but that wasn’t exactly my point. Here we have a citation for a case of a successful full-term tubal gestation. Thus, we have evidence that there is a vanishingly infinitesimal chance _x_ that a tubal pregnancy may be carried to term safely. What happens if the RCC decides that _x_ is an acceptable level of risk and withdraws its sanction for even partial salpingectomy? Conversely, in the case in the OP, would the RCC have deemed it acceptable had they performed a total hysterectomy (with the fetus in situ) rather than an abortion? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/496 "2010-05-24T21:20:32Z")
> [@Pazu](#): > > Here we have a citation for a case of a successful full-term tubal gestation. Thus, we have evidence that there is a vanishingly infinitesimal chance _x_ that a tubal pregnancy may be carried to term safely. > > What happens if the RCC decides that _x_ is an acceptable level of risk and withdraws its sanction for even partial salpingectomy? Right, I got your point. I’m just saying that it doesn’t appear to be valid. The RCC currently allows procedures that have the secondary effect of killing the fetus if they’re reasonably necessary to save the mother’s life and can’t be postponed until after the delivery. Unless you could present some evidence that an ectopic pregnancy was somehow magically not hugely dangerous (as opposed to some 100% to 99% fatal shift), I doubt their policy there would change. > [@](#): > > Conversely, in the case in the OP, would the RCC have deemed it acceptable had they performed a total hysterectomy (with the fetus in situ) rather than an abortion? I’ve wondered about that myself. Given precedent, I would assume that a hysterectomy would be acceptable. But who the hell knows. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/497 "2010-05-24T21:23:08Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > The vast majority of Catholic priests never abused anyone and I’m sure most of them were not directly involved in the coverups or had any knowledge of them. TRUE. > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > … I can at least appreciate the sentiment of a person who wishes to dedicate their life to serving others, which is in theory what a priest does, and was the goal for many if not most of them. TRUE AGAIN > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > So for you to treat every single priest like a potential pedophile because of the actions of their institution is, IMO, almost as grossly unfair as treating every Black man like a potential thief. ALSO TRUE, but dammit, how many thousands of cases, and repeat offenses etc does it take, over how many generations, before it was even mentioned, let alone acknowledged, and how “endearing” is it when the highest officials try to lash out against the accuses and victims? > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > The Catholic \*Church \*is absolutely to blame for its own image problem. \*Individual \*priests, however, do not automatically deserve that kind of disgust. Also true. The priests and nuns in my church and my schools were above board and ethcial, and honest etc. They do not deserve blame. However The Institution or upper hierarchy does need to examine itself a hell of a lot closer. The old “we know what is best for you” doesn’t fly, when they get caught up in worse things than we “sinners” would ever think of doing. Defiance doens’t work so well, once you’ve been busted. > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Grain of salt: I know some truly awesome Jesuits whom it would make me very sad to see you treat in this way. And, they too deserve better from the church they serve. ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/498 "2010-05-24T21:36:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Medically wrong? Really? > > Aneuploidy refers to missing and/or extra chromosones, IIRC. A person with Down’s syndrome is a victim of this disorder. Surely you’re not saying that, medically, a Down’s syndrome sufferer is not a person? > > Why don’t you tell me what _medically_ invalidates my claim that a ferticlized egg is not a person? Oh fer Christ’s sake. I’d love to see you attempt to define a person without being philosophical. You really don’t know what you’re talking about here. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/499 "2010-05-24T21:52:41Z")
What _would_ it take for the RCC to fail, anyway? Hypothetically. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/500 "2010-05-24T22:23:16Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > No bashing intended, but don’t statements by high-ranking RCC officials that suggest they are being persecuted or the situation is a media-driven fantasy suggest an evasion of responsibility and lack of penance? > > Wouldn’t this be true of any organization in a similar situation? I think the Catholic Church (my church) has handled the scandal horribly, and I don’t and didn’t disagree that they’ve often reacted in a manner and tone so out of sync with the facts that I was furious. But they have, finally, installed a policy that going forward realistically and responsibly deals with situations should they occur. This says nothing of how they did in the past or if all officials have reacted in a way consistent with the shame and remorse that they ought to feel. They haven’t. But SteveG1 is moving the goalposts in our exchange. He indicated that the Church, unlike BP, has done nothing to correct the situation. Not “too little” or “too late.” Nothing: > [@](#): > > That’s not fair (not fair to BP). BP did openly admit there was a problem (rather than attacking the states and any other businesses affected), and whether they are successful at fixing it it or not, BP is at least doing something to try and stop the leak. This is clearly wrong. Someone’s outrage over the scandal does not permit them to make up their own set of facts. The RCC has, finally and way too late, but from a point going forward, installed the types of policies and controls that address the scandal. So, my reply to his contention that the RCC has done nothing, was this: > [@](#): > > The Catholic Church has done nothing to address the problem? Am I understanding you correctly? SteveG1 responded, “Well, they did compare their detractors to the Nazis,” ignoring the point and twisting our exchange into a debate into something he’d prefer it to be, simultaneously getting a fun little dig in. “Of course the Church has done nothing, remember when they compared their detractors to Nazis?” seems to be the logic. Kills two birds with one stone–ignores the facts conveniently and bashes the RCC. That means, somehow, that it’s my responsibility to defend the Church’s past comments, when I do not hold that position, and it had nothing to do with the point I raised. But I recognize that while this thread has scattered elements of attempts at debate and to gain clarification, it’s essence is RO and for the most part, anyone who doesn’t wade in here to join in the chorus of, “The RCC sucks! _Everything_ they do is evil!” is spoiling the party. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182.md?page=26)